43S News

General discussion about calculators, SwissMicros or otherwise
Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:56 pm
Please consider that the last calculator featuring the old (inexplicable) sequence of operators was launched 37 years ago, IIRC.
Funny, its the same time when the last HP RPN-Calculator with the arithmetic keys on the left was launched.
But thats not exactly true. There was one in 2020 from SM :mrgreen:

A new layout proposal (classic "rpn" calc) - worse is always possible: :lol:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... re-MM6.jpg
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
c0rpse
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Re: 43S News

Post by c0rpse »

I'm know the forum software doesn't support this, but if a poll is going to be run everyone should have more than one vote to vote the percentage of how much they would prefer to buy a calculator with each layout.
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:14 am
Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:56 pm
Please consider that the last calculator featuring the old (inexplicable) sequence of operators was launched 37 years ago, IIRC.
Funny, its the same time when the last HP RPN-Calculator with the arithmetic keys on the left was launched.
Not half as funny if you knew that the subsequent calculators were the Voyagers (12C, 11C, etc.). Due to their landscape design, their arithmetic operators had to be relocated to the right - else they'd look like the DM41L. ;)
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Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

Walter wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:43 pm
Not half as funny if you knew that the subsequent calculators were the Voyagers (12C, 11C, etc.). Due to their landscape design, their arithmetic operators had to be relocated to the right - else they'd look like the DM41L. ;)
IMO the DM41(L) has the worst Key-Layout of all SM-Calculators. One of three reasons I was never interested in this calculator. With a voyager key-layout I would probably own one.

The Voyager Series had the typical Landscape-Layout of HP (like the HP97 i.e.). The reason was ergonomics. With landscape the arithmetic-key on the left and numbers on the right would be nearly unusable, in the middle they are inergonimic (see HP9100 or DM41L) so they put them on the right side - as usual with the + key on bottom-right (traditional from mechanical calulators).

If the buttons are on the left, bottom-left is a bad position for the important "+" key, this might be the deciding reason HP rearanged the order for Portrait-Design Calulators with the button on the left side. But the exact reasons we don't know, the only thing we know is, that the keyboard (layout and mechanic) was a very important element when they created the HP35.
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:26 pm
If the buttons are on the left, bottom-left is a bad position for the important "+" key, ...
Why? Please think Portrait pocket calculators, not desktop devices.
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Peet
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Re: 43S News

Post by Peet »

There are many users who have operated the classic RPN calculator with two thumbs. With this type of operation and with the one-finger version for right-handers, the lower left button is ergonomically less accessible than the + button on the "classics" Position.
My programmable calculators - former: CBM PR100, HP41CV, HP28S, HP11C - current: HP48G, HP35S, DM41X
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:54 pm
There are many users who have operated the classic RPN calculator with two thumbs. With this type of operation and with the one-finger version for right-handers, the lower left button is ergonomically less accessible than the + button on the "classics" Position.
Thanks. May be. At least this is an ansatz. But one operation has to go bottom left, and according to your story HP chose divide.

If this really was the reason, why on earth did they also swap plus and minus? They could have put simply / × − + (bottom up) in the left column, couldn't they? Are there any grey-haired troupers supporting Peet's story?
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STS-741
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Re: 43S News

Post by STS-741 »

Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:54 pm
There are many users who have operated the classic RPN calculator with two thumbs. With this type of operation and with the one-finger version for right-handers, the lower left button is ergonomically less accessible than the + button on the "classics" Position.
That's right, that's how it is! It should also be noted that the keyboards of the desktop devices at HP unfortunately had this stupid left orientation on some of their numeric keypads for no apparent reason. That should be enough as a further indication that HP apparently didn't associate it with any special purpose on the calculators produced later, but rather stuck to it out of tradition and habit. One could also assume that HP was obviously a reception center for disoriented developers at the time. The HP 9800 shows it very clearly, the arrangement of the keys was made purely arbitrarily, not for reasons of ergonomics or usability, but solely because of the optical geometry. :lol:

They didn't give a shit about usability, only the general functionality was important at the time. :roll:
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

STS-741 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:05 am
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:54 pm
There are many users who have operated the classic RPN calculator with two thumbs. With this type of operation and with the one-finger version for right-handers, the lower left button is ergonomically less accessible than the + button on the "classics" Position.
That's right, that's how it is! It should also be noted that the keyboards of the desktop devices at HP unfortunately had this stupid left orientation on some of their numeric keypads for no apparent reason.
Should read: It should also be noted that the keyboards of some desktop devices at HP had this left orientation on their numeric keypads for unknown reason.

Your remaining statement is purely speculative IMO. An HP 9800 did never exist. So much about that.
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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter »

Walter wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:39 pm
Peet wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:54 pm
There are many users who have operated the classic RPN calculator with two thumbs. With this type of operation and with the one-finger version for right-handers, the lower left button is ergonomically less accessible than the + button on the "classics" Position.
Thanks. May be. At least this is an ansatz. But one operation has to go bottom left, and according to your story HP chose divide.

If this really was the reason, why on earth did they also swap plus and minus? They could have put simply / × − + (bottom up) in the left column, couldn't they? Are there any grey-haired troupers supporting Peet's story?
A week has passed and just one person has supported Peet's story (newspeak: narrative). This doesn't sound good for a rational base of / × − + (bottom up) or even / × + − in the left column of pocket calculator keys. Anyone else? 8-)
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