43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:49 pm

Walter wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 am
You pursue your personal JM43S, we pursue a public WP43S. Different targets.
Though it's perfectly legal to branch an open source project. Since you publish your mods, I just took the freedom to comment from my point of view. You don't have to follow - nor will we follow your modifications. The following just documents different opinions, maybe triggering some thoughts. That's all a discussion is good for, isn't it?
I do see the above points the same way. I welcome comments and thoughts to my ramblings, and sometimes give them.

I've been doing this for a few weeks only, where-as you (singular and plural) have been doing it for years and have a fantastic WP34S to show. Big difference. Your opinions and comments therefore are considered, appreciated and respected, whether I agree with it or not.

I agree on my "personal" calculator except for the JM43S name (which you probably mentioned in jest). Either way, let it immediately be known that I do not want it called that, as I have not had any significant input. I am a simple user, commented on a few issues and I hack two dozen lines of your code my way. I would much rather have the "WP" remain in the name than change it. If there has to be a name, then it should rather be a suffix to your project name, something that would fit the greater scheme of HP things and not a JM-anything.
Walter wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 am
10.: IIRC, there was a post of Gene in this thread covering grouping of shifted labels. I can't find it right now (i.e. I'm too lazy for reading the full thread again). Please search, read, and decide.
I will search for it, thank you.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S News

Post by Dani R. » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:04 pm

I don't have much to contribute and you shouldn't take my contribution too seriously, but shouldn't the shift keys be "g" and "h"? Well, I can see that for "h" you would use the color green instead of the original color black. But it may well be that this point has already been discussed extensively and conclusively. HP itself remained at "f" and "g" when the 16C appeared. I think this is inconsistent.
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Walter
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 9:13 am
Location: Close to FRA, Germany

Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:33 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:04 pm
... shouldn't the shift keys be "g" and "h"? Well, I can see that for "h" you would use the color green instead of the original color black. ... HP itself remained at "f" and "g" when the 16C appeared. I think this is inconsistent.
And why should it be inconsistent?? Thanks in advance for enlightenment.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

Dani R.
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S News

Post by Dani R. » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:33 am

Walter wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:33 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:04 pm
... shouldn't the shift keys be "g" and "h"? Well, I can see that for "h" you would use the color green instead of the original color black. ... HP itself remained at "f" and "g" when the 16C appeared. I think this is inconsistent.
And why should it be inconsistent?? Thanks in advance for enlightenment.
Sorry for my English, I think your German will be better than mine, too. The HP-67 seems to be the reference model for HP itself, because my card reader for the HP-41C guarantees downward compatibility. The Topcats, Woodstocks and Spice knew the maximum Label E. The single byte OP codes for the HP-15C go from LBL 0..9 and LBL A..E. Even my HP-41C knows only LBL 00..14 as single byte OP Code. It seems obvious to me that HP has optimized the calculators for five keys for a long time. "f", "g" and "h" were the shift keys, also "I" "(i)" are reserved. With the introduction of the HP-16C they now had a model with an "F" key. The shift keys were left at "f" and "g" instead of changing them to "g" and "h". And that's inconsistent for me. For the Coconuts and later HP does not mark the shift keys with a letter and only works with color code and symbols.

On calculators without an "F" key, "f" doesn't bother me for the first shift key. But having only color code doesn't bother me.

Well, you can argue that "F" is not the same as "f". Then you can also argue that "cpx" is not the same as "CPX".

Only my thoughts.
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Walter
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 9:13 am
Location: Close to FRA, Germany

Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:26 am

Hmmh. AFAIK, as long as there is only one shift key, there is no need for labeling it (cf. HP-80, -45, etc.). As soon as there were more, HP began labeling them (cf. HP-65, -55, etc.). AFAICS, it followed mathematical convention calling functions f(x), g(x), h(x) (these 3 names are usually sufficient for whatever arbitrary functions you have in process). HP chose gold and blue as standard colours for f and g shift keys (for reasons discussed elsewhere long ago), but deviated as well (cf. HP-27). The hexadecimal digit F is an entirely different cup of tea.

About CPX and CPX etc.: Principally, you are free to define in mathematics whatever you want but must stick to it thereafter. Conventionally, upper and lower case letters denote different items while I don't remember any general convention covering underlining in mathematics.

For the 43S, we defined that items shall carry unique names - case sensitive but not looking to underlining. So CPX and cpx are regarded being different items, CPX and CPX are not. 8-)

Just my 20 m€ as usual. YMMV but won't apply to the 43S.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

Dani R.
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S News

Post by Dani R. » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:08 pm

I never had an HP-67, I couldn't afford the HP-29C either, so I first had to use a TI-51-III. With the HP-41C, the question of multiple shift keys never occurred to me.

Walter wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:26 am

... it followed mathematical convention calling functions f(x), g(x), h(x) (these 3 names are usually sufficient for whatever arbitrary functions you have in process)...

With the "f" and "g" keys I came in contact with the HP-16C for the first time. I never considered these keys a mathematical convention. For me this derivation makes little sense (Function G(5) = CF (in case of a HP-16C)). But of course it could have been like that. It could be worse.
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Walter
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 9:13 am
Location: Close to FRA, Germany

Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:09 pm

Please take a long look to the keyboard of the HP-65 (the first scientific pocket calculator with labeled shift keys IIRC) and think about its labels and why they are named the way they are. 8-)
Last edited by Walter on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

User avatar
inautilus
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, CANADA

Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:12 pm

Consider a pared down, cleaner aesthetic. Consider no letter ... at all.

Eliminate any (and all) unnecessary clutter. What needs to be communicated by these keys (their sole purpose) can be achieved more efficiently, indeed more effectively ... by the use colour alone. I propose/contend that this path would not be antithetical to the long respected and appreciated design imperatives of Hewlett Packard. Rather, it would be an homage.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. Antoine de Saint-Exupery

If you would kindly look past whatever misgivings you might have for the humble HP 35s and consider its keyboard treatment ... in the context of this subject. Thank you ...
Image
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

User avatar
Walter
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 9:13 am
Location: Close to FRA, Germany

Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:17 pm

@inautilus: Yes, in principle. But the arrow on the blue shift key should go down ;) ... and the other one straight up.

Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler. Albert Einstein
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

toml_12953
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 5:46 pm
Location: Malone, NY USA

Re: 43S News

Post by toml_12953 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:37 pm

inautilus wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:12 pm
Consider a pared down, cleaner aesthetic. Consider no letter ... at all.
It seems funny to include arrows when the labels aren't arranged left and right. The shift buttons could be recognized by color alone! If anything, I'd use an up arrow since the gold functions are above the key and a down arrow for the blue since the blue functions are on the underside of the key.
Tom L

My father was a man of the cloth. He was a tailor.

DM42 SN: 00025 (Beta)
SN: 00221 (Shipping)

Post Reply