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Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm
by mezoganet
Michael wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:54 am
The problem has been identified. It seems the metal sheets from which the metal domes were stamped weren't cleaned properly.
An oil film prevents reliable contact. The domes and the contact area on the PCB can be cleaned, which significantly improves the reliability.
We encourage anybody having such issues to do so, but of course this is not what customers should need to do.
We're working with a new supplier for new foils with the metal domes. Once available replacement foils can be obtained.
Michael,

I am really sorry, but every decent production guy knows that oil is an enemy to fight during process life !

* Assembly does not like oil
* Plastic does not like oil
* Glue does not like oil
* Safety does not like oil
* Customer does not like oil
etc..

We need oil for metal machining and treatment, that's ok, but also need to eliminate oil before next step in the process, it is kind of rule number 1, unless you work in Fish & Chips.

I think your production team needs some WCM/6 Sigmas/PDCA and so on training. These are basics in production today since the 80's.

Above all, when starting a new product/process, the first engeneering thing to do is some QFD (Quality Function Deployment), then writing the right SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) and of course, having people well trained on their workplace.

I understand SwissMicros is not Hewlett Packard, but why do we love so much HP is because they did apply those simple quality rules back in the 70's.

I have a problem (not an issue) with my DM41L bezel and the second bezel sent by Michael did not solve anything and I've understood that I will have to find a solution by myself : a third bezel would not solve the root cause and I did not get an answer from SwissMicros despite my eMail with pictures showing that the second bezel is clearly not glued at all on the bottom edge.

So frustrating !

PS : There is another thread on the subject, people complaining about Voyager bezel. As someone wrote, it is not a cheap calculator, it's 130€ device !

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=430

Re: Keyboard: Un-sanctioned results - cleaning

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:33 pm
by DougWagner
After reading the posts (and feeling adventurous) - I dissassembled my DM 42 (S/N 00355) - and applied an electronic contact cleaner (MG Chemicals "NuTrol") - primarily through the rear of the keyboard for contact into the domes - I exersized the domes liberally, and then dried and re-assembled.

I was having a persistent problem with the Enter - as well as a number of other keys not always responding to a keypress - after the cleaning it appears (qualitatively) that the keyboard performance is functioning with no missed key entry.

I did not check with anyone at Swiss Micros as to the correctness of this approach - I was willing to try and accept the consequences. I am posting this for information - and also, if this is not what was meant by "cleaning" - to have that reinforced by Swiss Micros.

Additionally - a big thanks to the Swiss Micros team (both the official, and the non-official group), and Thomas for Free 42 , and to all posters who share information - For me, the product and discussions take me back to the excitement I had in the days of my HP 33E - on through a variety of other units up to a pair of HP 59's - but the DM 42 captures the simplicity and efficiency I loved in my early school days....

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:25 pm
by Walter
mezoganet wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm
Michael wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:54 am
The problem has been identified. It seems the metal sheets from which the metal domes were stamped weren't cleaned properly.
An oil film prevents reliable contact. The domes and the contact area on the PCB can be cleaned, which significantly improves the reliability.
I am really sorry, but every decent production guy knows that oil is an enemy to fight during process life ! ...

I think your production team needs some WCM/6 Sigmas/PDCA and so on training. These are basics in production today since the 80's. ...
mezoganet,

Very good analysis. But please remember SM actually is a team of two, D & M. That's all. And AFAIK, D is a SW guy and M is a hands on businessman. I've neither met any production guy there so far nor anybody else dealing with quality and process planning on a level you suggest. IMHO, this may well be too much for a team of two. So either this team collaborates with a production team incorporating all those qualifications you mention (and cooperates through an interface well maintained) - or errors happen the way they did obviously. Just observations and diagnosis so far.

My 20 m€ only.

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:36 pm
by mezoganet
Walter wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:25 pm

mezoganet,

Very good analysis. But please remember SM actually is a team of two, D & M. That's all. And AFAIK, D is a SW guy and M is a hands on businessman. I've neither met any production guy there so far nor anybody else dealing with quality and process planning on a level you suggest. IMHO, this may well be too much for a team of two. So either this team collaborates with a production team incorporating all those qualifications you mention (and cooperates through an interface well maintained) - or errors happen the way they did obviously. Just observations and diagnosis so far.

My 20 m€ only.
Walter,

You are right concerning SwissMicros : I can't imagine them responsible for all those recurrent problems. I think there lacks a real Project Manager (China's concern) and good practices as I described in my previous post (China's concern too).

If not, we will complain one after the other of the same problem already encountered, solved and reappearing again and again.

I did hesitate a lot to order a DM41L after reading all negative comments about the Voyager models, here and elsewhere. I Thought "Well it's been a long time now...". I have received the SN:1146 having the same problem as the pre-series had : bezel does not stick at all on the bottom edge of the keyboard, and the second bezel arrived with painting or rust on the glued side and of course does not adhere neither... It seems to be the same old problem not solved, or solved for a while but not definitely solved. This is obviously a lack of documentation and/or communication in China Plant.

This was the meaning of my post : solve problems for ever, don't let them happen again, ever.

I have been in industry for 40 years, of which 15 years as Plant Manager (Plastic products for Cosmetics - Injection/Decoration/Assembly), and I can tell you that a claim could be disastrous for a plant and of course for the plant manager.

But there is no way to keep your customers happy even if they recognize the overall quality, the idea of HP revival, the commitment of SM team...

If nobody acts as an "Industrial Pilot", we will soon forget that SM was the best idea, the best Free42 ported on very nice hardware, the incredible dream that every buyer we all are dreamt to get an HP RPN Calc 20 years after the death of "true historical" HP company.

And this would be a real waste, really !

Patrick

PS : I did use my HP42s every day in the plant for every improvement in process. People don't always believe you when you say something, but when you type the formula on your calc, compute and display the result, this become the truth. HP42s solver was really an amazing feature !

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:40 pm
by cdmackay
For the adventurous, is there a guide showing (visually) exactly which bits need cleaning, and how to dismantle far enough to get to them, please?

Is IPA acceptable for cleaning? Any better, e.g. a particular contact cleaner (available in UK)? I have lots of IPA :)

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:29 am
by redglyph
Michael wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:54 am
The problem has been identified. It seems the metal sheets from which the metal domes were stamped weren't cleaned properly.
An oil film prevents reliable contact. The domes and the contact area on the PCB can be cleaned, which significantly improves the reliability.
We encourage anybody having such issues to do so, but of course this is not what customers should need to do.
We're working with a new supplier for new foils with the metal domes. Once available replacement foils can be obtained.
You told me that as well by email, then sent a replacement PCB.

It hasn't solved anything, the problem is still there, often a key would fail to register, or bounce (usually 2 times). Sometimes with very annoying consequences.

Unfortunately because of that, I'm not using the DM42, it's not reliable enough when I have to do calculations, it's very sad.

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:40 pm
by H2X
I would like to interject that I had issues with my keyboard initially as well. I don't recall having problem with key presses not registering, but the feel was not nice, and one side of the ENTER key did not click.

I got replacement domes which were slightly larger, and thus softer, and replaced them very carefully to get them perfectly centered.

Now I am super happy with the keyboard. It is really close to my best HP calculators.

Of course it could be argued that it should have been that good from the start, but the potential is certainly there.

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:15 am
by Rmollov
How did you get those replacement domes? Are they available and is there a way to get them? I don't mind to pay for a set of them.
Cheers

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:07 pm
by fcrvincent
Does anyone know if these oily domes, causing keys sometimes to fail registering, are also used in the DM1xL/41L units?

Thanks

Re: Improved Keyboard????

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:08 pm
by cdmackay
fcrvincent wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:07 pm
Does anyone know if these oily domes, causing keys sometimes to fail registering, are also used in the DM1xL/41L units?
My new DM16L has one key (÷) that requires much more force than the others, to register, and seems very similar to the issue I have with shift & enter on my DM42. Could be coincidence.