43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:23 am

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:40 am

When Dani compiles the Windows Emulator and sends it to me tomorrow, I will load it on my http server and make it available. Chances are 96.34 % that the emulator may be available tomorrow morning ;-)

Edit: PS. The backup.bin file MUST be deleted prior to running.

Code is pushed up to the import5 branch.
DM42 image: (I did not yet test it, sorry, just compiled, no time): http://cocoon-creations.com/download/43C_13L2.pgm
The Windows emulator as promised. Thanks Dani. http://cocoon-creations.com/download/WP ... -10-01.zip
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:04 am

The main project changed their key layout slightly recently. The % key was removed, D% is retained, and the free space used for something else.

1. Practically, % is only useful because it leaves Y on the stack, which could be handy. So you could repeatedly do say 35% of 2322, and 2322 remains in Y for the next operation.

2. The D% function though is probably marginally more useful in determining deviation from the value in Y, also keeping Y on the stack.

3. But practically, as a teacher's spouse, I only ever needed a % function not on the keyboard, i.e. I always need the a function to repeatedly convert X/Y to percentages, i.e. always do a little program to produce X/Y*100 and keep Y on the stack.



I think a single % function on a f key is sufficient as Walter did now, i.e. only D%. In USER mode you could assign the other function (%) to that key, if needed. Or, as per my teacher's spouse role, assign an RPN program to the % key to produce percentages as required.

My thinking is to

1. move the D% function to the % button f[RCL] and to re-instate x! by putting it on g[RCL]
2. default the normal % function in USER mode to f[RCL] just to test any way.
Edit. 3: Above is for Layout 1A. I could maintain Layout 2 DM42 compatibility, by keeping in Layout 2 the % function on the % key, as the DM42 label states %, not D%.

Thoughts?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 208
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:45 am

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:04 am
...
My thinking is to

1. move the D% function to the % button f[RCL] and to re-instate x! by putting it on g[RCL]
2. default the normal % function in USER mode to f[RCL] just to test any way.
Edit. 3: Above is for Layout 1A. I could maintain Layout 2 DM42 compatibility, by keeping in Layout 2 the % function on the % key, as the DM42 label states %, not D%.

Thoughts?
Layout 2 is clear,I think you will leave '%' on f[RCL].

I suspect that at some point you will want to have '->DP' directly on a key. I'm not sure that in general the DP mode will be introduced. Temporarily I would replace '%' with '->DP' in layout 1A. If then the mode DP is introduced you can still set 'x!' to f[RCL].
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:37 am

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:45 am
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:04 am
...
My thinking is to

1. move the D% function to the % button f[RCL] and to re-instate x! by putting it on g[RCL]
2. default the normal % function in USER mode to f[RCL] just to test any way.
Edit. 3: Above is for Layout 1A. I could maintain Layout 2 DM42 compatibility, by keeping in Layout 2 the % function on the % key, as the DM42 label states %, not D%.

Thoughts?
Layout 2 is clear,I think you will leave '%' on f[RCL].

I suspect that at some point you will want to have '->DP' directly on a key. I'm not sure that in general the DP mode will be introduced. Temporarily I would replace '%' with '->DP' in layout 1A. If then the mode DP is introduced you can still set 'x!' to f[RCL].
That is an interesting suggestion. I like the >DP in the interim. But it sounds like you are ok with dropping %.

About x!: i have never professionally used x! but the number of times in my life using x! is large - maybe it is a bit of show off value since most other calculators have an implementation of x!

About DP: I requested a change from the main project to optionally have the default number entry settable (in addition to the existing auto real16/longint selection. Item 317 on my last Status Report.

Such default selection on g[RCL] could also work well in addition to >SP, >DP and IP (which are on the 2nd Home menu).
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Patrick
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Location: Canada

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Patrick » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:11 pm

Although I agree that the % key can easily be replaced by an easy calculation, the fact remains that I have become accustomed over the years to using it as it is when I need it. This key exists on the keyboard of a very large number of HP calculators, why remove it here? Because it is not considered at the same level as the other functions? If it had to be sacrificed to free up space for another function, I might agree, but that is not the case.

In addition, I find it important to avoid modifying the functions that are in yellow on the DM42 as much as possible. This allows me to find my way around without the help of templates or other additions.

I therefore do not agree with this suggestion.
Last edited by Patrick on Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:15 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:37 am
... But it sounds like you are ok with dropping %.
Your thread has now taken on an impressive length. Of course I can't remember everything, but I'm sure that '%' and 'Δ%' have been debated. I don't know anymore who defended '%' and 'Δ%' directly on the keys and for what reasons. For me it would be enough to find them in the FIN menu.

In layout 2 you should probably keep '%' on f[RCL] for now.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:21 pm

Patrick wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:11 pm
I therefore do not agree with this suggestion.
;)
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 208
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:40 am
Regarding the COMPLEX / CC discussion, I added two default USER mode assigns (for test purposes only). The ASN command is not working, I hard coded these defaults, and plan to take it out when the main project ASN is working:
  • COMPLEX is on the normal position, now HP42S compliant, i.e. it will convert x+iy to x and y on the stack and vice versa.
  • in USER mode ( f[2] ), E+ changes to CC. CC is the WP43S CC, which does both interactive and x+iy conversion. As previously.
  • in USER mode ( f[2] ), f[E+] changes to CC1. CC1 is interactive entry ONLY. I don't particularly see a need for this one. I would like comments whether I should even keep CC1.
You can toggle USER mode on and off by f[2]. (If there is interest, I could hard code some more temporary USER mode re-allocations for testing. Just let me know).

Concerning the COMPLEX functions. Normally you can keep the key pressed when calling, then the operation will be aborted (NOP). This doesn't seem to work for COMPLEX, CC and CC1, but for ENTER doesn't either.

The virtual user mode with 'CC' assigned to 'Σ+' does not have this test assignment in the DM image.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:22 pm

Patrick wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:11 pm
Although I agree that the % key can easily be replaced by an easy calculation, the fact remains that I have become accustomed over the years to using it as it is when I need it. This key exists on the keyboard of a very large number of HP calculators, why remove it here? Because it is not considered at the same level as the other functions? If it had to be sacrificed to free up space for another function, I might agree, but that is not the case.

In addition, I find it important to avoid modifying the functions that are in yellow on the DM42 as much as possible. This allows me to find my way around without the help of templates or other additions.

I therefore do not agree with this suggestion.
I take your point. The % will stay on the f[RCL] button for backward compatibility and for muscle memory. For both Layout 1A and Layout 2.

But I don't think a second percentage related function on g[RCL] is needed. I think we can use that prime real estate g[RCL] for something else.
If ever you need the D%, USER mode is there to change % to D%, or use it from a menu.

At the moment my options for g[RCL] are
1. x!.
2. I accept Dani's proposal of having an interim >DP on g[RCL]. I'll do that soon.
3. I am also dabbling with the idea to have g[RCL] to toggle the default number input type to either DP, SP, or AUTO. (Auto is as it is now, input is type LONGINT unless a decimal is typed).
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
Posts: 340
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:32 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:40 am
Regarding the COMPLEX / CC discussion, I added two default USER mode assigns (for test purposes only). The ASN command is not working, I hard coded these defaults, and plan to take it out when the main project ASN is working:
  • COMPLEX is on the normal position, now HP42S compliant, i.e. it will convert x+iy to x and y on the stack and vice versa.
  • in USER mode ( f[2] ), E+ changes to CC. CC is the WP43S CC, which does both interactive and x+iy conversion. As previously.
  • in USER mode ( f[2] ), f[E+] changes to CC1. CC1 is interactive entry ONLY. I don't particularly see a need for this one. I would like comments whether I should even keep CC1.
You can toggle USER mode on and off by f[2]. (If there is interest, I could hard code some more temporary USER mode re-allocations for testing. Just let me know).

Concerning the COMPLEX functions. Normally you can keep the key pressed when calling, then the operation will be aborted (NOP). This doesn't seem to work for COMPLEX, CC and CC1, but for ENTER doesn't either.
This is because the KEY_CC function is an exception in the key processing routines. ENTER and EXIT are also exceptions in the same way, and both do not have the NOP working. I can't think of an easy way it can be fixed - I suspect it will stay like that for long. But Martin is a clever programmer, maybe he finds another way to do it, but it will be a big job I think. Either way, this is a good point, I would recommend you log that as an issue on the 43S otherwise it gets forgotten.

CC1 and COMPLEX are special cases of CC using only a few IFs in the processing to bypass parts of the code as needed, so CC1 and COMPLEX cannot be different from the CC and will only be fixed when CC is fixed.
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm
The virtual user mode with 'CC' assigned to 'Σ+' does not have this test assignment in the DM image.
It is not intended. This is a bug. I will look. Thanx.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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