43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:10 am

H2X wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:33 pm
Interesting! But maybe only [SHIFT] is really needed, as long as yellow and blue label names never clash - which they don't?

Consider [SHIFT]+[LOOP] and [SHIFT]+[TEST] as but one example. You'd still need to locate which button the [LOOP] and [TEST] labels are on, regardless of how you refer to the fact they are shifted.
I follow your point here, but if you took this logic to the extreme, no shift need be shown at all since LOOP and TEST are unique. But time and experience have shown that most people expect, and as a result many (not all) people documenting programs show keystrokes using the [f] or [g] to provide an unambiguous hint that the user should be looking at the labels printed on the bezel, typically above the key, sometimes on the front face of the key, and totally oddly, below the key on the 67.

And the color-blindness point before Didier made is the best point of all, so it seems we're back to the starting place, which should be no surprise; Walter has been doing this for quite a long time.
--bob p

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rprosperi
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Re: 43S News

Post by rprosperi » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:15 am

inautilus wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:13 pm
And I see colour in the bezel area. Is the colour generated by the screen ... or is it printed on a 'bezel'?
You are in a much better position than I to to advise ... thank you in advance. :)
The yellow and blue bars are on the bezel only to correlate/highlight the lines of displayed functions with the [f] and [g] shift respectively. For some functions there will be multiple lines displayed above each 'F' key - the line just above those keys are unshifted functions, the yellow line shows the [f]-prefixed functions, and the same for the blue.
--bob p

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:25 am

Thank you. Yes, I understood how that works ... was just unclear about how the yellow and blue were generated: printed on a bezel, or displayed on the perimeter of high resolution colour screen. Had it been the later with a colour screen (the HP Prime for example) ... then WOW! That would open up a Whole Lot of interesting and exciting possibilities on any number of fronts ...

For the subject at hand (case in point) the echo displayed after a shift key was pressed could be a crystal clear, easy to read colour bar annunciator.

So why doesn't the WP 43S have a colour screen in the spec (HP Prime). Surely the 43S deserves the best. Is the goal here to just realize the vision ... or rather to transcend it ?
Last edited by inautilus on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
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keithdalby
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Re: 43S News

Post by keithdalby » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:38 am

inautilus wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:25 am
So why doesn't the WP 43S have a colour screen in the spec (HP Prime).
Cost, battery life, development time. The Prime already exists. This is something different.

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:02 am

rprosperi wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:10 am
H2X wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:33 pm
Interesting! But maybe only [SHIFT] is really needed, as long as yellow and blue label names never clash - which they don't?

Consider [SHIFT]+[LOOP] and [SHIFT]+[TEST] as but one example. You'd still need to locate which button the [LOOP] and [TEST] labels are on, regardless of how you refer to the fact they are shifted.
I follow your point here, but if you took this logic to the extreme, no shift need be shown at all since LOOP and TEST are unique. But time and experience have shown that most people expect, and as a result many (not all) people documenting programs show keystrokes using the [f] or [g] to provide an unambiguous hint that the user should be looking at the labels printed on the bezel, typically above the key, sometimes on the front face of the key, and totally oddly, below the key on the 67.

And the color-blindness point before Didier made is the best point of all, so it seems we're back to the starting place, which should be no surprise; Walter has been doing this for quite a long time.
There are many valid points which become apparent when really thinking this through. As of course Walter has been for quite some time.

I think my personal favourite symbols at present would be HP-35s / HP-48 style arrows. They have no mathematical symbolism associated with them, like f and g, being arrows they remind of the up arrow on their namesake (i.e. shift) key on many computer keyboards, and they provide hints of the label positions (i.e. upper left and upper right).

Typographically speaking, that is. The perhaps only remaining concern might also be typographical, that these arrows don't seem to be easily represented in HTML (so that the community can contribute docs and examples), e,g, like HTML entities. The f and g do, of course.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:47 am

keithdalby wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:38 am
inautilus wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:25 am
So why doesn't the WP 43S have a colour screen in the spec (HP Prime).
Cost, battery life, development time. The Prime already exists. This is something different.
Thanks, Keith. I couldn't have said it better.

@inautilus et al.:
It's perfectly ok if you read a bit about the 43S (feel free to start e.g. in this thread, but there are also older ones - your favorite search app is your friend). Thinking during reading is most welcome. If there are any open points then, please ask.

Edit: As long as you need coloured pencils for your homework you may need a calculator with colour display - else you won't. Just my 20 m€ as usual. YMMV
Last edited by Walter on Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:02 am

@keithdalby
Yes, I agree. I was hesitant to even refer to the Prime given the direction Hewlett Packard went with it ... almost pandering to the younger, more commercial end of the market ... while apparently abandoning the more traditional, nothing but excellence, and scientific/engineering minded. Very different machines. Different pedigree. Different DNA. But surely the Prime isn't all bad. Is it wise to revile it, completely? Take from it what is good, and move on. At least consider it ... It's one thing to be a purist, but when was the last time you even saw a black and white TV.

Given the economies of scale, the Prime sells for $119. I'm just saying that a colour display (with its inherent potential) is possible. Why not add it to the mix and 'bake it in', for now at least ...

Steve Jobs, known for sometimes controversial comments re innovation, expressed strong agreement with the following: "Good artists copy; great artists steal"

"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
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"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:10 am

What would be the practical use case for a colour display? Not counting references to coloured shift keys?

Only graphics comes to my mind. Is this what we want? Or need? And are we still discussing the 43S as proposed by Walter?

BTW, has anyone looked at the HP Prime vs. the DM42 screens in sunlight?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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inautilus
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Re: 43S News

Post by inautilus » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:32 am

@Walter
:lol: You're a pretty funny guy. I really appreciate your sense of humour ... kind of old school. Revealing. We should join in having a pint some day. :D
Thank you for the feed back ... learning quite a bit,
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

Dani R.
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Re: 43S News

Post by Dani R. » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:58 am

H2X wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:02 am
...

There are many valid points which become apparent when really thinking this through. As of course Walter has been for quite some time.

I think my personal favourite symbols at present would be HP-35s / HP-48 style arrows. They have no mathematical symbolism associated with them, like f and g, being arrows they remind of the up arrow on their namesake (i.e. shift) key on many computer keyboards, and they provide hints of the label positions (i.e. upper left and upper right).

Typographically speaking, that is. The perhaps only remaining concern might also be typographical, that these arrows don't seem to be easily represented in HTML (so that the community can contribute docs and examples), e,g, like HTML entities. The f and g do, of course.
+1


For an accurate documentation it is essential that you can make a binding note of the individual keystrokes. Personally, however, I find this complete documentation sometimes annoying when reading. It is important to me in which menu I find the functionality, whereby this should also be obvious. So that 'c' is in the menu CNST should be noted somehow. The fact that you can find CNST under the Shift [g] helps when reading, but I still have to search all keys. Well, then there's the possibility to write [g][RCL], this finally confuses me, then I'm gone.

Using color in the documentation on the screen and in printing should be presumed today.

An indication whether and which Shift key is active is of course essential.

Question about the menus, I don't have a simulator at hand. Is the line that is currently active (underlined, bold, inverse, etc.) marked when opening the menu (except for the index [],[f] or [g])? Can I alternatively use the cursor keys to highlight the currently active line? Is the index then automatically updated?
DM42 SN:00032

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