43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Jaco has written it a few times, and I like to repeat it. Without WP43S there is no WP43C.
Maybe there was some right criticism:
akaTB wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:17 pm
That's exactly what I don't care of: variations on vapourware.
Can't we wait to see the WP43 materialize before pimping it up?

On a calculator the performance is an important point. I notice with the PGM files of WP43S and WP43C a blatant performance deterioration compared to the DM42/Free42.
Walter wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:46 pm
:lol: That's marketing, isn't it? Jaco, do you have relatives in the USA? :lol:

The concept paper of the WP43S changes continuously, so I can't and won't contribute to the two projects. Here I work according to the pleasure principle. When I see something that can be improved I do a POC (explanations about POC above in the thread). That is, if I feel like it. I have no obligations and no pressure at all to implement anything.

It is clear to me that Over_score has not yet looked for performance improvements. The best way to get an impression of the WP43S/C is on the DM42 hardware. And there the lack of performance is noticeable.


And I don't have to sit in every thread as the last poster to increase my post-counter.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 am

Some questions on the 43C user interface.

H2X previously had good suggestions which were implemented, so calling H2X for some thoughts. Also anyone else welcome, I just want to make sure H2X is on the bus ;-)

Proposal 1:

We already have double and triple tap on shift. That works well.
We already have a double tap on backspace, to DROP X.

Now I was thinking to (in addition to the normal functionality) to add a double tap to FN1-6 for perform [f][FN] so that you can directly access the yellow line and blue line shifted functions on the soft keys. Of course triple tap brings up g. And the idea is to use the current timing system on the buttons which disallows slow repeats, etc etc etc.


Proposal 2:

The item g[CLK] seems to have little to do with "clock". The main menu has date and time related items.

Would it be better to name it "TIM" or "TIME"?
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Ideas?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:04 am

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 am
I just want to make sure H2X is on the bus ;-)
Jaco, if we ever meet I'm going to buy you a beer. Some time you're not driving the bus, that is... :-)

I will need to let it simmer, but my first hunch is to be careful not to overextend ourselves. "Overloading" the shift key is easy for a number of reasons:
  • It looks different.
  • It is special (it's a modifier key).
  • It is harmless. Press it how long / as many times you want, it does not change your stack or the settings of the calculator. You need to press another key to make something happen.
  • Whatever you do can be easily undone (by pressing the shift key some more).
  • It is exceptional. It it easy on the brain to accept one (or maybe a few) exceptions to the rules. Too many exceptions get difficult. Perhaps because the exceptions are no longer so exceptional...
  • People now have experience with various gadgets which weren't around in the good old RPN days. Pressing the same key(s) multiple times, and even long pressing is not uncommon. Many touch screen devices support long pressing. People are used to this.
If you can live with the notion of "overloading" the shift key, as all of us "committee" people can, there is no need for multiple shift keys. At least for my brain, one "extra powerful" shift button is more agreeable than several shift buttons. Two is just a waste of space. Three is just too much...

Bottom line, as long as exceptional remains exceptional, and thus easy on the brain, I say go for checking out ideas.

Now simmering...
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:18 am

Dani R. wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Maybe there was some right criticism:
akaTB wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:17 pm
That's exactly what I don't care of: variations on vapourware.
Can't we wait to see the WP43 materialize before pimping it up?
It is open source and I choose not to wait. And for that, I get to use a calculator that I like, right now, shaping just the way I want it. Of course you can wait if you like, but then you can’t use it and influence it.

Vapourware it isn’t and neither is the variation on it. I use my WP43C every day in my job. it works well for 98% of the things I need day to day (granted I don’t do rocket science, I play with wires, i.e. R & X). But still therefore: vapourware, it is not.
Dani R. wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:32 pm

On a calculator the performance is an important point. I notice with the PGM files of WP43S and WP43C a blatant performance deterioration compared to the DM42/Free42.
With Dani’s detailed analysis and improvements, the performance of the WP43 user interface has sky rocketed in the last week and as of now it really is butter smooth to use.

As a closing thought on the ‘vapourware’ point: I used to, but I don’t pack my 42S or WP34S or WP34C anymore, leave alone other relics (28C, 35S, 32SII). For what I need, my alpha version 43C is the only calculator in my bag. For anything else the 43C cannot yet do, Byron’s 42S app is always with me on my phone and with that the remaining 1%-2% can still be done, i.e. maybe solve an equation or do a complex number formula for repetitive calculations.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:20 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 am
...

Ideas?
H2X wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:04 am
...

Now simmering...

time-out...




Timeout could be the solution. Press [Fx] briefly, wait, is the correct function in the display, continue waiting, after a timeout the function will be executed. If you press [Fx] again within the timeout, the function f[Fx] should be displayed, after a timeout f[Fx] will be executed. However, if you press [Fx] again within the timeout, the function g[Fx] should be displayed, after a timeout g[Fx] will be executed. However, if [Fx] is pressed again within the timeout, nothing is executed and NOP appears. Or you can press the [Fx] key during one of the previous time-outs until NOP appears.

Yes, it could work. This delays the call of functions via the soft menu. You don't have to worry about the status of the shift keys anymore. But please use a checkbox to activate it as an option.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:43 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:41 am
Now I was thinking to (in addition to the normal functionality) to add a double tap to FN1-6 for perform [f][FN] so that you can directly access the yellow line and blue line shifted functions on the soft keys. Of course triple tap brings up g. And the idea is to use the current timing system on the buttons which disallows slow repeats, etc etc etc.

Ideas?
OK, simmered some.

I have not thought it over myself, so this might just be a huge brainfart, but I'll share it anyway.

The FN1-6 keys are obviously different from the shift key in that they already have a function, which is associated with the normal short press. Double-clicking (as with a computer mouse) seems error-prone, and undoing an unintended primary function in case a double-click failed seems difficult. I'm not advocating double-click at all - on the contrary I'm trying to rule it out.

However, long press might be an option. It is different, and as long as the (visual) feedback is clear, it should be harmless and undoable. Press they key long enough, bring up f. Repeat, bring up g. Repeat again, back to where you started.

One "bonus" about this approach could be that if you don't like it, you can just ignore it altogether and go on with your usual, short-press business. Should you accidentally linger too long on one of the FN keys, you might or might not notice the effect - and you could easily fix it with the tool you already know, i.e. the shift key.

Shoot away. I'm already ducking... :-)
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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:00 pm

H2X wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:43 pm
However, long press might be an option. It is different, and as long as the (visual) feedback is clear, it should be harmless and undoable. Press they key long enough, bring up f. Repeat, bring up g. Repeat again, back to where you started.
Yes, a short press will execute [FN]. A long press displays f[FN]. Now release the key, f[FN] is executed, holding it down longer leads to NOP.

A long press will display f[FN]. Release and press again within a short timeout, short or long, to display (and then execute) g[FN].

Advantage; the f function can still be reached by pressing once and the g function by pressing twice.
Last edited by Dani R. on Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:55 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:00 pm
H2X wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:43 pm
However, long press might be an option. It is different, and as long as the (visual) feedback is clear, it should be harmless and undoable. Press they key long enough, bring up f. Repeat, bring up g. Repeat again, back to where you started.
Yes, a short press will execute [Fx]. A long press displays f[Fx]. Now release the key, f[Fx] is executed, holding it down longer leads to NOP.

A long press will display f[Fx]. Release and press again within a short timeout, short or long, to display (and then execute) g[Fx].

Advantage; the f function can still be reached by pressing once and the g function by pressing twice.

I really like where this is going. Good idea H2X. And well elaborated on Dani.

The way it’s written, the first part feels very intuitive, i.e. Normal press for normal business. Keep pressing, and the alternative f[FN] appears. Release if you want that. (#)

But the second part above seems confusing. I would rather change it as such:

Continuing from (#), keep it in for longer, and g[FN] is displayed, release if you want that. If incorrectly pressed, still keep in for even longer, until NOP.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:20 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:55 pm
...

I really like where this is going. Good idea H2X. And well elaborated on Dani.

The way it’s written, the first part feels very intuitive, i.e. Normal press for normal business. Keep pressing, and the alternative f[FN] appears. Release if you want that. (#)

But the second part above seems confusing. I would rather change it as such:

Continuing from (#), keep it in for longer, and g[FN] is displayed, release if you want that. If incorrectly pressed, still keep in for even longer, until NOP.
Actually, you can allow both ways of getting to g[FN]. At the moment I can't remember where I had to do this: Long press until what happens and confirm with another short press (or change to g[FN] as I suggested above).

For me, a short press or a long press is intuitive to operate, without really having to consciously monitor the process on the display. Pressing even longer can of course be another event than simply pressing for a long time. A very long press then leads to NOP. The distinction between long pressing and even longer pressing seems to me to be a source of danger for operating errors. Of course this does not have to be. Or alternatively, as described above, pressing again is equivalent allowed to pressing even longer.


Someone can create a drawing if he thinks he has understood what I tried to explain.
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:19 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:20 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:55 pm
...

The way it’s written, the first part feels very intuitive, i.e. Normal press for normal business. Keep pressing, and the alternative f[FN] appears. Release if you want that. (#)

But the second part above seems confusing. I would rather change it as such:

Continuing from (#), keep it in for longer, and g[FN] is displayed, release if you want that. If incorrectly pressed, still keep in for even longer, until NOP.
Actually, you can allow both ways of getting to g[FN]. At the moment I can't remember where I had to do this: Long press until what happens and confirm with another short press (or change to g[FN] as I suggested above).

For me, a short press or a long press is intuitive to operate, without really having to consciously monitor the process on the display. Pressing even longer can of course be another event than simply pressing for a long time. A very long press then leads to NOP. The distinction between long pressing and even longer pressing seems to me to be a source of danger for operating errors. Of course this does not have to be. Or alternatively, as described above, pressing again is equivalent allowed to pressing even longer.


Someone can create a drawing if he thinks he has understood what I tried to explain.
Let me try:

Assuming "hold" represents the amount of time which distinguishes between a normal (short) press and a long one. Then:
  • Press + release = execute FN (the normal, short press function)
  • Press + hold + release = execute f(FN)
  • Press + hold + hold + release = execute g(FN)
  • Press + hold + hold + hold + release = no-op
Yes?
DM42 SN:00040 | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time - Steven Wright

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