43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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akaTB
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by akaTB » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:10 am

And think about us, poor souls, who have to maintain what comes out of those projects in the years to come, after natural turnover, teams disbanded and almost no documentation available.
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    Massimo

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Thomas Okken
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Thomas Okken » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:04 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:15 am
I would like your opinion as to whether the radio button is useful on a device with a screen like the DM42 or whether there are any reservations about this concept. You have enough experience with it.
The HP-42S has radio buttons and check boxes. In the MODES menu, for instance, DEG/RAD/GRAD, RECT/POLAR, RRES/CRES, and KEY/LCLBL act like radio button groups, and QUIET acts like a check box.

Those menu items all look the same, but given the small number of pixels the 42S designers had to work with, there wasn't much more they could do.

The forms in the HP-48/49/50 series use a richer set of UI widgets, and given the higher resolution of the DM42 screen, one could do the same thing there as well. Things like radio buttons, check boxes, drop-down or pop-up menus are all useful and well-established, so if it makes sense to use them in the WP43, I'd say go for it.

I can't be more specific than that because I haven't played with the WP43 yet so I have no feel for its UI. I only follow this thread because I'm interested in the WP43's functionality.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm

From my side the 43C remains connected to the main project with experimental changes to the UI. I do not do a published manual ahead of coding. I will maintain and update my existing 43C vs. 43S differences document after experimental works crystallise.

Walter, the examples that you mentioned, i.e. P/R and R/S are not candidates for either CheckBox or RadioButton, as the UI feedback element cannot be indicated on the hardware button without an LED. If QUIET gets a softbutton and a binary state, then CheckBox would be relevant, otherwise not. The only currently working 43S CheckBox case I saw would be the LZON/LZOFF case, and that only if it would be changed to single softbutton operation instead of two existing softbuttons which I implemented as a two state RadioButton. I may change that on the 43C.

Dani demonstrated that the non-trivial integration of the graphical feedback elements to an existing set of mute buttons was not only feasible but works well, and in good faith of ploughing back he offered to implement that into a branch of 43S. Maybe I am a bit naive, but it seems that this offer was not taken up maybe amongst other reasons due to the out of context tangent taken on how others err with ‘Agile’ methods. I do not really care if it goes into the 43S or not, but in my view after using it, I do not want to do without on my 43C.

As Thomas said, RadioButtons and CheckBoxes are not new. HP42S had it in 1988 and this 2004 article provides more detail: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/checkb ... o-buttons/. Interestingly, in this article, they mention the preference is to RadioButton above dropdown list, as all options are simultaneously visible. For interest, the WP31S and WP34S have a limited form of dropdown list (arrow up/down without the actual dropdown portion). The 43S selection buttons FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL already use a limited form of RadioButton (without the status feedback indication). In my opinion everything UI is a compromise on a small low function screen, but I do like the feedback. I think it helps to feel more in control of something if you better know the outcome of pressing something before you actually do it, and that re-inforced by confirmation after you’ve done it.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm
As Thomas said, RadioButtons and CheckBoxes are not new. HP42S had it in 1988 and this 2004 article provides more detail: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/checkb ... o-buttons/. Interestingly, in this article, they mention the preference is to RadioButton above dropdown list, as all options are simultaneously visible. For interest, the WP31S and WP34S have a limited form of dropdown list (arrow up/down without the actual dropdown portion).
These are the menus of WP34S and WP34S, no "limited form of dropdown list". O, si tacuisses ...! :roll:
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm
The 43S selection buttons FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL already use a limited form of RadioButton (without the status feedback indication).
If you call a quadruplet of softkeys RadioButton then you're right in principle BUT the status feedback is via the status bar on the 43S (remember the questions to Radio Jerewan?). So absolutely nobody needs any RadioButtons here. 8-)

General remark: Despite some 630 posts in this thread (though by very few people) about a redesign of a model which isn't even finished, the 43S will never be designed by a committee. Promised. 8-) :mrgreen: I bet you know why meanwhile.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm
As Thomas said, RadioButtons and CheckBoxes are not new. HP42S had it in 1988 and this 2004 article provides more detail: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/checkb ... o-buttons/. Interestingly, in this article, they mention the preference is to RadioButton above dropdown list, as all options are simultaneously visible. For interest, the WP31S and WP34S have a limited form of dropdown list (arrow up/down without the actual dropdown portion).
These are the menus of WP34S and WP34S, no "limited form of dropdown list". O, si tacuisses ...! :roll:
Different angles on the same thing.
Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm
The 43S selection buttons FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL already use a limited form of RadioButton (without the status feedback indication).
If you call a quadruplet of softkeys RadioButton then you're right in principle BUT the status feedback is via the status bar on the 43S (remember the questions to Radio Jerewan?).
The display mode status is NOT in the status bar, unless you still plan it. I picked this FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL example, as it is one not listed by Thomas above, and one that definitely does NOT have its status in the status bar in the 43S. I would like the ENG03 indication in the status line though, but it is not there, and frankly the space is limited, so I won't be putting it there. I'm happy with the indication on the [f][DISP] RadioButton on the 43C.

I do not know Radio Jerewan in this neck of the woods. Not sure what you are referring to.
Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 pm
So absolutely nobody needs any RadioButtons here. 8-)
Very strong and untested statement. For sure I know at least one other person wanting it.

Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 pm
General remark: Despite some 630 posts in this thread (though by very few people) about a redesign of a model which isn't even finished, the 43S will never be designed by a committee. Promised. 8-) :mrgreen: I bet you know why meanwhile.
It is no contest, and no, I don't know why.

I'm not trying to push you to change anything, and you may also have noticed that I stopped asking for changes months ago after you stopped responding to them on the 43 News list. I really don't care whether you add features to your original specification or not. I will add the ones important to me if within my ability, and I'm very happy if other more capable users than me add things I can't, like the status indications of the RadioButtons and Checkboxes. There is no committee pushing you either.

Either way, your 43S Lastenheft and Martin are brilliant, nobody is disputing that; without that, my efforts of making a few small changes to achieve something useful to some would be fruitless.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:27 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:58 pm
Walter wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:15 pm
The 43S selection buttons FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL already use a limited form of RadioButton (without the status feedback indication).
If you call a quadruplet of softkeys RadioButton then you're right in principle BUT the status feedback is via the status bar on the 43S (remember the questions to Radio Jerewan?).
The display mode status is NOT in the status bar, unless you still plan it. I picked this FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL example, as it is one not listed by Thomas above, and one that definitely does NOT have its status in the status bar in the 43S. I would like the ENG03 indication in the status line though, but it is not there, and frankly the space is limited, so I won't be putting it there. I'm happy with the indication on the [f][DISP] RadioButton on the 43C.
You're right, the real number display mode is not in the status bar (Sorry, I confused some settings. My fault.).
Why not? Since most people remember what format (FIX/SCI/ENG/ALL) they chose, in particular when they see each and every real number displayed in said format. And it's most easily changed. And the choice doesn't alter the value of the number in any way. YMMV
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:41 pm

Hi all,

Update time again.

The differences document, slightly updated: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/WP ... s_v044.pdf
The emulator and firmware: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/WP ... -11-11.zip
The firmware only: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/43C_19L2.pgm

Improvements made:
much faster key response on the calculator (thanks to Dani)
number type default entry setting (longing, single precision real, double precision real)
RadioButtons on all options (like DEG/RAD/GRAD, FIX/SCI/ENG, etc.)
CheckBoxes on all options
Updated differences document
Updated to all latest improvements of the main 43S project, like CATALOGS (half way implemented),

Best is to load the emulator, and/or load the firmware and give it a shot.

Best regards
Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Over_score
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Over_score » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:41 am

Hi Jaco,
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:41 pm
much faster key response on the calculator (thanks to Dani)
Can you tell me more about this?
What exactly has Dani changed?
DM42 (SN 00284 & 03835), DM15L, HP41CV, HP42S, HP35s, WP34S, HP Prime

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:41 am

Over_score wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:41 am
Hi Jaco,
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:41 pm
much faster key response on the calculator (thanks to Dani)
Can you tell me more about this?
What exactly has Dani changed?
Hi Martin

I made a stopwatch function which Dani improved. Dani uses it to find and eliminate time wasters which sliwed down the 43C. This is still in progress. The first time waster eliminated was a hack that I did, to add the f/g indicators on screen. Danie put an if there to not draw the circles after each key, only when necessary.

So at this point he fixed what I broke. But we are checking more aspects and will try improving all.

There is test commit with the timers, Dani-Test2 a4ce4da. Go to f MODE, up, up maybe another up. Switch the timer on on FN1. I am on my phone now, I cannot do more details for you now. I can later tonight.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:46 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:41 am
Over_score wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:41 am
Hi Jaco,
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:41 pm
much faster key response on the calculator (thanks to Dani)
Can you tell me more about this?
What exactly has Dani changed?
... So at this point he fixed what I broke. But we are checking more aspects and will try improving all. ...
:lol: That's marketing, isn't it? Jaco, do you have relatives in the USA? :lol:
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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