43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:17 am

H2X wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:17 am
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:45 am
Walter wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:01 am
Some pixel work may pay.:)
Walter's suggestion pixel playing paid off. I fixed the pixel spacing and Dani completed the radio buttons and added check boxes as well.

The underlining idea did not work on the DM42, but the compressing of the words did work and saved some pixels to make space for the radio buttons on the sides.
Very sorry for chiming in so late, but did you consider background shading also as a way to indicate checked / not checked?

Distinguishing between radio buttons and checkboxes may still be an issue (albeit perhaps difficult anyway given the small size), as well as conveying that the option is checkable in the first place - but might the latter be self evident based on the option?

Anyway, how would one convey which radio buttons belong together in a group?
Hi H2X

Yes I considered it, but I did not want to create confusion as the menu softkey buttons already are inverted.

I experimented with solid underlining and also with halftone underlining (every second pixel in a three pixel thick line, in chess board style).

The halftoning (shading) is not very visible on the DM42. This experience also made it clear that making inverted text usng halftoning will also not work.

I do not intend making it clear which radio buttons belong in a group. I do not want to add more clutter to that area. Grouping must make it clear.

As example, I laid out the following screen to have the groups sort of stick together:
Clipboard07.jpg
Clipboard07.jpg (9.11 KiB) Viewed 340 times
I grouped top left as a 2x2 cluster of options for menu control (in progress, that functionality not working yet).
I grouped top right to be the 3x1 cluster of options for the single shift button control.
I group bottom right as 3x1 RadioButtons for the default entry setting.
And I stuck eRPN which does not relate to any of those, and is a square check box, in the middle on the primary keys.

Grouping is not always possible especially in a full screen, but comments on readability will certainly be considered.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:40 am

H2X wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:17 am
...

Anyway, how would one convey which radio buttons belong together in a group?
As always, I don't want to attack anyone, and I'm not annoyed myself. Written communication and a translation program make it more difficult to be understood correctly. But a large part of the communication also takes place by the recipient, how he/she reads, hears and understands something. There I have no influence on it.

RadioButton:
We have now learned that radio button is wasted space. So I assume that the overall concept of the WP43S will be revised to correct this waste of space. I can only guess at that. Probably we will get a button Angular Mode Up and a button Angular Mode Down, with which you can set the desired Angular Mode. Or they make the rotary switch in only one direction, so you have to toggle through all positions. This needs then only one button. It is also possible, however, that the concept error will not be corrected and one continues to work with the radio button, without marking the state on the button of course. No matter what concept changes are made in the WP43S, I think the changed concept will be adopted in the WP43C without anticipating Jaco's decisions. But I'm sure that the radio button state marker in the WP43C will hold.

Checkbox:
The concept of the WP43S avoids checkboxes if possible and works with two buttons to edit a state. (For me this is a waste of space, but I'm responsible for myself to take it that way.) The DM42 has checkbox. In the DM42 you don't see any graphical difference to the RadioButton. Nevertheless the DM42 is very intuitive to use. Even without extensive user manual. In the WP43S checkbox is introduced. Also here I am sure that the state mark of the checkbox in the WP43C will last.

GroupBox:
The WP43C currently still follows 100% the concept of the WP43S, with a few enhancements in the user interface. Groupbox (convey which radio buttons belong together) are currently not available for either the WP43S or the WP43C. As already described, I will write a ticket with low priority. The DM42 has no Groupbox. Nevertheless you can operate it. I think this is because you have the imagination of what to expect, what happens when you press the DEG button or the POLAR button. One solution could be to position each group of radio button in a separate line. This then increases the area in the soft menu through which you have to scroll and is also a waste of space. Currently there are 18 groups of radio button. I can't work with colors. When I work with shades, you end up with Fifty Shades of Grey, which hurts. I don't think that this can still be represented on the DM. Otherwise you will be able to put together frequently used functions in the MyMenu. At the moment I have no idea how to display the groupings without changing the concept.

Better differentiation RadioButton/Checkbox:
I don't claim that you can't better distinguish radio button and checkbox from each other. For a first draft of this POC (proof of concept, for those who don't understand this TLA) I am extremely happy. In any case, it needs several feedback from future users who have tried the Windows emulator and/or the PGM on the DM42. We might even have to simplify the graphics and work with filled circles and squares. But this still has time, because WP43S/WP43C are in alpha status.

Invocation:
The stability of the WP43C is already considerable. 'Over_score' does a fantastic job! For most daily work you can already use the Alpha release. Go into Walter's thread and write what you are missing to become alpha testers. Is it the few missing functions up to the WP31S functionality that keep you from becoming alpha testers?
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:01 am

Dani R. wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:40 am
H2X wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:17 am
...

Anyway, how would one convey which radio buttons belong together in a group?
RadioButton:
...

GroupBox:
...
I never meant to introduce GroupBox as a separate concept. I only meant to point out the fact that a radio button only makes sense in the context of other radio buttons -- namely those others which get deactivated when one is activated.

Somehow, this should be made clear to the user.

To my knowledge, a GroupBox is a visual component which makes this relationship visually apparent. Like Jaco says, this can be done by grouping.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:08 am

I liked this writing, Dani, it made me smile. I think DeepL translator is fantastic.

Over_Score +1

I confirm I use my WP43C on DM42 almost daily in my day job for EE type calcs (that is, at most i,², π, √, ∣∣, *, /, +, -, ATN, SIN & COS on a good day).

I also confirm RadioButtons and CheckBoxes will stay. The sizes and shapes may change if needed. Maybe I ask Apple to bring back the hard single RadioButton on this iPhone :lol:

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:51 pm

Eventually found out what you meant by CheckBox: seems you talk about a toggle actually. :? The 43S, AFAICS, features a total of three (3) toggles in some 750 functions: R/S, P/R, and QUIET. For sake of consistency, the latter should be better called Q/L (I'll tell the author ;) ). Q/L is the only toggle whose status isn't indicated yet. :shock:

Please allow me quoting Shakespeare: Much ado about (almost) nothing. :P

Per your definition, there are many RadioButtons implemented. Most of them have some tradition, like DEG/RAD/GRAD etc. Some of them are just pairs like alphaON/alphaOFF. These latter could be replaced by toggles easily but for the prize of breaking user's customs. I doubt that's worth the saving.

So much about brainless translating. :lol:
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:53 am

Walter wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:51 pm
Eventually found out what you meant by CheckBox: seems you talk about a toggle actually.
Yes. Also known by some - in my neck of the wood - as a user interface component intended for rendering the value of a boolean property. Mileages do vary.
Walter wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:51 pm
Some of them are just pairs like alphaON/alphaOFF. These latter could be replaced by toggles easily but for the prize of breaking user's customs. I doubt that's worth the saving.
On the other hand, user interfaces have moved on, many now incorporating toggles / checkboxes, radio buttons / dropdown menus -- maybe even a rotary switch. Some users might complain, others might welcome what I am only guessing they might call a more modern approach.

Walter, I respect you deeply and I certainly don't want to argue with you, but the current hardware platform -- and in particular the screen -- offers so much possibility compared to previous hardware, your new and innovative (brilliant, if I may say so) on-screen menu included, so if there ever is a time to ado about details, it is now. Imagine the work that other tech ventures put into user interface (UI) and user experience (UX) research and design. I bet they find it worth their while.

This not only applies to the 43S/C code, but also to the underlying DM42 platform / operating system. All kinds of flags, settings, boolean or multi-valued properties are candidates and might benefit from a unified, consistent approach.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Thomas Okken » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:36 am
..conceptual work pays...
What happens with the WP43C development could be called "agile software development". And that's the way all major companies do their software now. Microsoft develops Windows 10 "Agile". That's why we get an update every six months.
"All the major companies are doing it" is not much of a proof of effectiveness. It can also be a sign of a fad or groupthink.
"Microsoft is doing it" is particularly weak. Microsoft has such an entrenched monopoly position that they can get away with pretty much anything. Read up on "stack ranking" as an example of a management miscarriage that would sink most other companies.

And who gets an update from Microsoft every six months? I know they use a numbering scheme that is meant to suggest a six-month cadence, but I didn't get 1903 until September, and even then, I wished they'd sat on it longer. Every Windows 10 update since its initial rollout has caused serious problems, the kind of problems you'd expect with a major release and not an update, to the point where their whole new release system is nothing but a joke at this point.
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Agile software development values:
“We are uncovering better ways of developing software by doing it and helping others do it. Through this work we have come to value:
  • Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
  • Working software over comprehensive documentation
  • Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
  • Responding to change over following a plan
That is, while there is value in the items on the right, we value the items on the left more.”
Like all popular management advice, that is so vague it's Not Even Wrong™. Here's my application of this kind of thinking to medicine: "Heart over lungs. While we value the lungs, we value the heart more." :lol:

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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:36 pm

Thomas Okken wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:36 am
..conceptual work pays...
What happens with the WP43C development could be called "agile software development". And that's the way all major companies do their software now. Microsoft develops Windows 10 "Agile". That's why we get an update every six months.
"All the major companies are doing it" is not much of a proof of effectiveness. It can also be a sign of a fad or groupthink.
"Microsoft is doing it" is particularly weak. Microsoft has such an entrenched monopoly position that they can get away with pretty much anything. Read up on "stack ranking" as an example of a management miscarriage that would sink most other companies.

And who gets an update from Microsoft every six months? I know they use a numbering scheme that is meant to suggest a six-month cadence, but I didn't get 1903 until September, and even then, I wished they'd sat on it longer. Every Windows 10 update since its initial rollout has caused serious problems, the kind of problems you'd expect with a major release and not an update, to the point where their whole new release system is nothing but a joke at this point.
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Agile software development values:
“We are uncovering better ways of developing software by doing it and helping others do it. Through this work we have come to value:
  • Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
  • Working software over comprehensive documentation
  • Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
  • Responding to change over following a plan
That is, while there is value in the items on the right, we value the items on the left more.”
Like all popular management advice, that is so vague it's Not Even Wrong™. Here's my application of this kind of thinking to medicine: "Heart over lungs. While we value the lungs, we value the heart more." :lol:
Hello Thomas, even if I try not to be ironic in between, I should still put the banner "Can contain irony". I suppose we think similarly, but certainly have a very different temperament. And we then react differently to reproaches.

To be honest, I use the LTSC version on the PC on which I depend on Windows 10. This reduces the problems with the update-/upgrade orgies considerably. And no, you can't even run Windows 8.1 forever, on current hardware the result was unsatisfactory. But I tried it.

Microsoft is an example for me that the concept of "Agile software development" alone is not yet a concept. To make matters worse, the test team has been disbanded and the insider program has been used to report bugs. It's stupid when nobody reads the feedback of the beta testers...

The "founding fathers" of the Agile Manifesto, I believe, are themselves shocked by what was made of their idea. And which consulting staffs can now earn money without having to write software themselves. But this is another discussion, we should make a separate thread for it. Since I have certainly made mistakes in the chronicle of Microsoft's mistakes.

My experience tells me that every project has to be managed differently. But here in the fork WP43C the "Agile software development values" actually fit. Especially if an existing concept is simply adopted and continued.


But since my bait worked and I have you right here, with your experience with the HP-42S and other HP calculators, do you have reservations about r...? ;)
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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:07 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:53 am
Walter wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:51 pm
Some of them are just pairs like alphaON/alphaOFF. These latter could be replaced by toggles easily but for the prize of breaking user's customs. I doubt that's worth the saving.
On the other hand, user interfaces have moved on, many now incorporating toggles / checkboxes, radio buttons / dropdown menus -- maybe even a rotary switch. Some users might complain, others might welcome what I am only guessing they might call a more modern approach.

Walter, I respect you deeply and I certainly don't want to argue with you, but the current hardware platform -- and in particular the screen -- offers so much possibility compared to previous hardware, your new and innovative (brilliant, if I may say so) on-screen menu included, so if there ever is a time to ado about details, it is now. Imagine the work that other tech ventures put into user interface (UI) and user experience (UX) research and design. I bet they find it worth their while.

This not only applies to the 43S/C code, but also to the underlying DM42 platform / operating system. All kinds of flags, settings, boolean or multi-valued properties are candidates and might benefit from a unified, consistent approach.
Why don't you want to argue with me? I'm a definite friend of constructive discussions. 8-) Just don't you tell me what you don't like but tell me how to make it better. :) BTW, we already deviate from the HP-42S paradigm by not using its system flags.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:27 pm

Thomas Okken wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm
Agile software development values:
“We are uncovering better ways of developing software by doing it and helping others do it. Through this work we have come to value:
  • Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
  • Working software over comprehensive documentation
  • Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
  • Responding to change over following a plan
That is, while there is value in the items on the right, we value the items on the left more.”
Like all popular management advice, that is so vague it's Not Even Wrong™. Here's my application of this kind of thinking to medicine: "Heart over lungs. While we value the lungs, we value the heart more." :lol:
Thanks, Thomas, for your entire post. Somebody has to tell the youngsters not to follow every so-called new management BS™. Wait for two more years and "agile" will be totally out since even the last employee will have recognized its general application is BS™. Think yourself instead, work hard and thoroughly, and focus on quality - these values will remain forever.

And never forget trainers have to earn money, too, so they have to "invent" something "new" every once and a while. And if they live in the USA, they will always INVENT an INNOVATIVE GROUNDBRAKING NEW PARADIGM changing the world. Simply don't believe it.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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