43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:26 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:14 pm
And what's the difference between your RadioButton and your CheckBox?
At least with both me and Dani answering, you get the same answer from two points of view.

A check box is for a single option that can be either on or off.

For example, your LZON LZOFF boxes are implemented as RadioButtons, but can easily be changed to have one box only, with a CheckBox. When checked it is on, when not, it is off.
Clipboard13.png
Clipboard13.png (2.92 KiB) Viewed 337 times

My example of eRPN below, is a single box, either on or off.
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Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:00 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:36 am
..conceptual work pays...
What happens with the WP43C development could be called "agile software development". And that's the way all major companies do their software now. Microsoft develops Windows 10 "Agile". That's why we get an update every six months.

Agile software development values:
“We are uncovering better ways of developing software by doing it and helping others do it. Through this work we have come to value:
  • Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
  • Working software over comprehensive documentation
  • Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
  • Responding to change over following a plan
That is, while there is value in the items on the right, we value the items on the left more.”

„Wir erschließen bessere Wege, Software zu entwickeln, indem wir es selbst tun und anderen dabei helfen. Durch diese Tätigkeit haben wir diese Werte zu schätzen gelernt:
  • Individuen und Interaktionen stehen über Prozessen und Werkzeugen
  • Funktionierende Software steht über einer umfassenden Dokumentation
  • Zusammenarbeit mit dem Kunden steht über der Vertragsverhandlung
  • Reagieren auf Veränderung steht über dem Befolgen eines Plans
Das heißt, obwohl wir die Werte auf der rechten Seite wichtig finden, schätzen wir die Werte auf der linken Seite höher ein.“
DM42 SN:00032

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:13 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:26 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:14 pm
And what's the difference between your RadioButton and your CheckBox?
At least with both me and Dani answering, you get the same answer from two points of view.

...
If I understand the question correctly, what might be left to clarify is the concept of a radio button group - i.e. when pressing one button, which other buttons get switched off?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:00 pm

H2X wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:13 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:26 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:14 pm
And what's the difference between your RadioButton and your CheckBox?
At least with both me and Dani answering, you get the same answer from two points of view.

...
If I understand the question correctly, what might be left to clarify is the concept of a radio button group - i.e. when pressing one button, which other buttons get switched off?
Hello Jaco, have you seen your team getting bigger and bigger? There H2X wants to introduce GroupBox. Although, nothing is impossible. I think I'll write a ticket. With low priority.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:15 pm

H2X wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:13 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:26 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:14 pm
And what's the difference between your RadioButton and your CheckBox?
At least with both me and Dani answering, you get the same answer from two points of view.

...
If I understand the question correctly, what might be left to clarify is the concept of a radio button group - i.e. when pressing one button, which other buttons get switched off?
Ahh. Yes. That answer defines the RadioButton vs CheckBox.

All other buttons in the RadioButton group deactivates when one is pressed, i.e. only one of the round RadioButtons may be on at a time.

The CheckBox type is the square button, and there, each one is on their own, i.e. independent options simultaneously selectable.

Regards
Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Walter » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm

Thanks for your answers. The CheckBox is clear now (1 box for two softkeys, binary choice). The RadioButton seems to be the space wasting alternative of the good ol' rotary switch. AFAICS, the 43S doesn't need any radio buttons since the respective current settings of DEG/RAD/GRAD/MULπ/D.MS, etc. are indicated in the status bar. YMMV
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:07 am

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm
The RadioButton seems to be the space wasting alternative of the good ol' rotary switch.
Precisely, and excellent analogy. Within a group, there is always exactly one radio button which is selected. No more, no less.

In the wild, violations of this principle may be observed. The one example which comes to my mind which is not categorically wrong, given that it is appropriate to its use case, is the initial state of zero radio buttons selected. Once any button is pressed, the "rotary switch" always points to some value, and one can never return to the initial "null" state.

More than one radio button selectable at any one time -- well, it might make sense in exceptional edge cases, but the original behavior of buttons on a radio for selecting a preset channel / the rotary switch no longer applies, and new rules are needed.

There might be interesting applications of this. Perhaps a Schrödinger's cat simulator would even require this behavior... :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

nlj
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by nlj » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 pm

Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm
The RadioButton seems to be the space wasting alternative of the good ol' rotary switch.
Exactly so. :) But with two differences: 1. With a rotary knob, to change the state between two non-adjacent choices, you have to turn on (and off) all the intervening states; with a set of radio buttons you can go directly from any state to any other -- the radio button array is "direct access" as it were. 2. A set of radio buttons is much easier to implement than a rotary knob in a computer user interface, and much easier for the user to manipulate -- unless, perhaps, they have a 3-d holographic interface and some sort of virtual reality gloves with haptic feedback, which is a bit of a tall order for a calculator.
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm
AFAICS, the 43S doesn't need any radio buttons since the respective current settings of DEG/RAD/GRAD/MULπ/D.MS, etc. are indicated in the status bar. YMMV
Indicating the current state is only half the job of a set of radio buttons. The other half is to provide an easy way for the user to change the state. Is the status bar of the 43S interactive such that the user can use it to change, for example, the angle mode? [I hope that question doesn't come across sounding rhetorical/sarcastic, it is an honest question asked from ignorance -- I'm new in this world.]
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm
The CheckBox is clear now (1 box for two softkeys, binary choice).
This doesn't sound quite right. A check box has one box (or space) for a tick / check mark to appear or not appear for one choice (for which there are exactly two options). For example, if you display or do not display the time depending upon the state of a flag, one could represent that flag with one check box labelled something like "Show clock". There would not be two soft keys, just one to toggle the check mark (and the flag) on/off. [Sorry, perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by "two softkeys".]

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:17 am

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:45 am
Walter wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:01 am
Some pixel work may pay.:)
Walter's suggestion pixel playing paid off. I fixed the pixel spacing and Dani completed the radio buttons and added check boxes as well.

The underlining idea did not work on the DM42, but the compressing of the words did work and saved some pixels to make space for the radio buttons on the sides.
Very sorry for chiming in so late, but did you consider background shading also as a way to indicate checked / not checked?

Distinguishing between radio buttons and checkboxes may still be an issue (albeit perhaps difficult anyway given the small size), as well as conveying that the option is checkable in the first place - but might the latter be self evident based on the option?

Anyway, how would one convey which radio buttons belong together in a group?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:02 am

nlj wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm
AFAICS, the 43S doesn't need any radio buttons since the respective current settings of DEG/RAD/GRAD/MULπ/D.MS, etc. are indicated in the status bar. YMMV
Indicating the current state is only half the job of a set of radio buttons. The other half is to provide an easy way for the user to change the state. Is the status bar of the 43S interactive such that the user can use it to change, for example, the angle mode? [I hope that question doesn't come across sounding rhetorical/sarcastic, it is an honest question asked from ignorance -- I'm new in this world.]
That is the very reason why we added this to the 43C, to have positive knowledge of which setting you want to change to what. Your example of angle mode: The angle mode is shown in the status bar, non-interactively. You must change the actual option using the 6 function buttons, in this case, shifted function buttons.
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WP43C HOME menu showing the angle mode selection buttons.


nlj wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 pm
Walter wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:38 pm
The CheckBox is clear now (1 box for two softkeys, binary choice).
This doesn't sound quite right. A check box has one box (or space) for a tick / check mark to appear or not appear for one choice (for which there are exactly two options). For example, if you display or do not display the time depending upon the state of a flag, one could represent that flag with one check box labelled something like "Show clock". There would not be two soft keys, just one to toggle the check mark (and the flag) on/off. [Sorry, perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean by "two softkeys".]
He meant that currently there are two softkey buttons doing the same thing as one softkey button with a checkbox, see the LZON / LZOFF example below. In this example I have changed the 43S two button LZON/LZOFF to RadioButtons (a straight conversion) and have not yet changed it to a CheckBox (Removing one button).
Clipboard06.jpg
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WP43C MODE second screen showing LZON/LZOFF
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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