43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:21 am
H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:15 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:04 am


S.FN

I think it's so rarely used, and then by the people who use P.FN also.


EDIT:

A.FN

Maybe the big A is enough to establish the distance to ALPHA.
It may just be me, but "string functions" is a phrase in my vocabulary - "alpha functions" is not. Also, oftentimes "alpha" associates with "alphanumerical", which might want to be avoided here?
I agree with avoiding misleading names. a.FN already misleads and does not describe the same thing. I like inautilus' boxed alpha letter on its own, but I do not like the a.FN of there main project.

I would propose something more different like TXT, TEXT, or TXT.FN or STR.FN (if it fits), but not STR which is too close to STK.
Topic jump again.

At the moment I can't give a good reason why I don't like text and variants either. But maybe you can introduce another abbreviation, E for Edit. This is what is happening here.

STR.E
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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:41 am

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 am
At the moment I can't give a good reason why I don't like text and variants either. But maybe you can introduce another abbreviation, E for Edit. This is what is happening here.

STR.E
But aren't the operations functions - i.e. don't they take (an) argument(s), and return a result?

In my understanding, if "edit" were a function, it would return void and modify its argument (or what the argument refers to).
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:58 am

H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:41 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 am
At the moment I can't give a good reason why I don't like text and variants either. But maybe you can introduce another abbreviation, E for Edit. This is what is happening here.

STR.E
But aren't the operations functions - i.e. don't they take (an) argument(s), and return a result?

In my understanding, if "edit" were a function, it would return void and modify its argument (or what the argument refers to).
Correct. I think the proposal for .E is more confusing for that reason. Edit refers to modifying writing, not manipulating characters.

I believe the functions in this menu warrant the .FN letters, similar to P.FN and X.FN. But length is an issue.

We should stay within 5 characters, so that excludes TXT.FN and STR.FN. On L1 next to TIMER there us little space. On L1A, 6 letters might work.

In essence the choices here are:

TXT.FN or STR.FN for L1A. I prefer TXT.FN.
or
TX.FN which can work
ST.FN which is confusing due to STK
T.FN may also work. I see no reason why not.

I think it is important to ‘break’ the association with Alpha, as it is not really related.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:04 pm

H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:41 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 am
At the moment I can't give a good reason why I don't like text and variants either. But maybe you can introduce another abbreviation, E for Edit. This is what is happening here.

STR.E
But aren't the operations functions - i.e. don't they take (an) argument(s), and return a result?

In my understanding, if "edit" were a function, it would return void and modify its argument (or what the argument refers to).
You're right about principle. And perhaps one should not interpret the meaning too freely for an abbreviation.

My dictionary gives me these two translations for "Zeichenfolge".
- character string
- string

CSTR
CS.FN

I don't know, you guys go ahead.
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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:08 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:58 am
TXT.FN or STR.FN for L1A. I prefer TXT.FN.
or
TX.FN which can work
ST.FN which is confusing due to STK
T.FN may also work. I see no reason why not.
If you don't find anything more suitable, I'm voting for T.FN right now.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:17 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:04 pm
H2X wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:41 am
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:15 am
At the moment I can't give a good reason why I don't like text and variants either. But maybe you can introduce another abbreviation, E for Edit. This is what is happening here.

STR.E
But aren't the operations functions - i.e. don't they take (an) argument(s), and return a result?

In my understanding, if "edit" were a function, it would return void and modify its argument (or what the argument refers to).
You're right about principle. And perhaps one should not interpret the meaning too freely for an abbreviation.

My dictionary gives me these two translations for "Zeichenfolge".
- character string
- string

CSTR
CS.FN

I don't know, you guys go ahead.

Good idea. I like the base word: “character”. I like that more than “text”, because “text” largely refers to paragraphs or even more.

CHR.FN would be ideal if I can fit it in the space.
CR.FN is too vague and does not remind of character.
CS.FN also is far from intuitive.

I even think CHAR may be effective, even if there is no FN.

Other thoughts?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm

Change of subject.

I also take the liberty to make a few remarks about the mock up of inautilus. But I didn't print them as photos, just printed them with the color laser in the size of the DM42. Generally these mock up's are always very dark. Today I had enough sun outside. Excitingly the letters A..Z became slightly magenta in my prints. Since this seems to be a problem for my printer, I won't judge the colors.

With these fonts and contrasts I come to the same order as Jaco, concerning the readability and the recognition of function and menus.

Now to the criticism. In R 9 Hi-Res Compressed NHG Font - 2019-08-24 D A MacDonald. I am nearsighted. With small fonts, I still have an advantage over many people in being able to read them when I remove my glasses. For me, the font is too compressed. This writing really hurts me, as if my head, my eyes were clamped into a vice. Unfortunately I have to express it so drastically. It's good to have made this attempt, but you probably won't be able to print two labels side by side just on the width of a key.

In general I like very much how the mock up's are prepared. Others can judge fonts and sizes better than me.

A few more suggestions. But these are really only suggestions. This is no invitation to make these attempts.
- The shadows brighter instead of darker. This certainly gives a visually different effect.
- Make the frame around the g-label in blue, the same as the font. This also gives a different visual effect.
- Because of the previous point a very small distance between two menu labels.

In general, I hope that you won't have to go back to the solution with the underscores in the end.
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:04 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:28 pm
Change of subject.

I also take the liberty to make a few remarks ... ( ) ... the readability and the recognition of function and menus.

Now to the criticism. In R 9 Hi-Res Compressed NHG Font - 2019-08-24 D A MacDonald. I am nearsighted. With small fonts, I still have an advantage over many people in being able to read them when I remove my glasses. For me, the font is too compressed. This writing really hurts me, as if my head, my eyes were clamped into a vice. Unfortunately I have to express it so drastically. It's good to have made this attempt, but you probably won't be able to print two labels side by side just on the width of a key.
Thank you ... THANK YOU ... Dani ! :)
I couldn't agree with you more. There is no question that some type of adjustment (from series 7) was in order for the double labels at each key ... its just that the order of magnitude needed in my opinion was more on the micro adjustment scale. There is no doubt that the compression of a very suitable font such as Neue Haas Grotesk was going to be a good option ... its just that a full 50% might have been a bit of an overshoot. Take another look at the 7 series labels, and you might agree that while the size and compression of the Swiss 721 BT font wasn't exactly right, over all it was certainly in the ball park. I was waiting for someone else to confirm my concern before I proposed another tweak (it shouldn't be left to only one person's point of view). So, I feel confident that the Neue Haas Grotesk font is an excellent choice ... it is just that the compression merely needs to be scaled back. I will kindly request that Jaymos might assist again in generating another few sets of NHG compressed fonts. A 60%, 70%, and possibly an 80% set. I can then rework the faceplate labeling over the next little while ... and them send them back for you, and everyone else interested, to review.
In general I like very much how the mock up's are prepared. Others can judge fonts and sizes better than me.

A few more suggestions. But these are really only suggestions. This is no invitation to make these attempts.
- The shadows brighter instead of darker. This certainly gives a visually different effect.
- Make the frame around the g-label in blue, the same as the font. This also gives a different visual effect.
- Because of the previous point a very small distance between two menu labels.

In general, I hope that you won't have to go back to the solution with the underscores in the end.
While I appreciate your modesty, I do not agree. Your judgement was requested ... and so it is respected, and appreciated. :D Thanks again ...

The challenge is one of balance. The trick is to have the labels produced in such a way as to be primarily easily legible ... and not just for those with perfect vision. The other challenge, however, is more difficult. For a number of reasons it is desirable to have the labels pertaining to menus be subtly differentiated. Whatever the method employed, the menu key labels have to operate in such a way as to work effectively ... clearly signifying their menu status ... while, at the same time, have to be visually non-intrusive ... thus adding no clutter. In effect, these labels have to be effective and work when needed ... but then magically fade into the background when they are not. The fact is, this keyboard in particular is already a fairly densely populated neighborhood ... and so it needs to be given just a little bit more attention, and be kept as clean as possible ... for everyone's benefit.

I will check in with Jaymos to see if he could help with tweaking the NHG fonts ...
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:25 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:17 pm
Good idea. I like the base word: “character”. I like that more than “text”, because “text” largely refers to paragraphs or even more.

CHR.FN would be ideal if I can fit it in the space.
CR.FN is too vague and does not remind of character.
CS.FN also is far from intuitive.

I even think CHAR may be effective, even if there is no FN.

Other thoughts?
Does "character" suggest single character manipulations?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:31 pm

Hi all
I am busy with a rendition of NHG with 2 tweaks:

1. Slightly decreased compression, 1.2x of the 50pc, i.e. 60pc.
2. Slight increase in the spacing right of the letter.

It is a manual process, so I am only doing the 26 caps, and a few more lower case letters.

I will rather you first try the 60pc+spc version as it is almost complete now, and let’s decide what after that. Too much to do the range of percentages upfront.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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