43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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TwoWeims
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by TwoWeims » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:50 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:52 pm
TwoWeims wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:36 pm
This is really starting to shape up nicely! I have been lurking here for some time watching your progress.

I would like to offer some help.
I am in the laser engraving business. I have a Laser Cutter, a Direct to Substrate UV Printer, and a DM42.
If you send me a dimensionally accurate image of the keyboard bezel when you get the design finalized I could try to make some custom overlays for the DM42 that would include the blue labels.
Hi

What an amazing idea! No harm in trying! I will be making a dimensionally accurate vector graphics file with the artwork. I like specific fonts to make it look good, but first, as you say, I need to finalise the layout, then I make a graphic file, then you try it.

Currently we have Layout1 which really works great. A few mails back today there was a suggestion for a small change to Layout1 which is not yet made because I focussed to compile the Layout2 test firmware which I sent out earlier.

Then there is Layout2 which I am making so that a person can test the DM42 without having a key template. I found it frustrating to look on a paper print of the blue labels where to find which menu, so I though of making a layout which will work intuitively on the DM42. Of course a label template can be made for either layouts, but Layout2 can be used without. I am not decided whether Layout2 is good enough to permanently replace Layout1. It will be a pain maintaining both.

TwoWeims, have you loaded it on your DM42 ?


Regards
J
I have not tried it yet. I use my DM42 daily and I don't want to screw it up.
I should try though. I can always restore the DM42 in short order.
DM42 SN: 3682
HP-15C and HP-16C (Bought originally by me in the 80's)
HP-67 and HP-55
HP-48G
MK-52

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TwoWeims
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by TwoWeims » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:52 am

TwoWeims wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:50 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:52 pm
TwoWeims wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:36 pm
This is really starting to shape up nicely! I have been lurking here for some time watching your progress.

I would like to offer some help.
I am in the laser engraving business. I have a Laser Cutter, a Direct to Substrate UV Printer, and a DM42.
If you send me a dimensionally accurate image of the keyboard bezel when you get the design finalized I could try to make some custom overlays for the DM42 that would include the blue labels.
Hi

What an amazing idea! No harm in trying! I will be making a dimensionally accurate vector graphics file with the artwork. I like specific fonts to make it look good, but first, as you say, I need to finalise the layout, then I make a graphic file, then you try it.

Currently we have Layout1 which really works great. A few mails back today there was a suggestion for a small change to Layout1 which is not yet made because I focussed to compile the Layout2 test firmware which I sent out earlier.

Then there is Layout2 which I am making so that a person can test the DM42 without having a key template. I found it frustrating to look on a paper print of the blue labels where to find which menu, so I though of making a layout which will work intuitively on the DM42. Of course a label template can be made for either layouts, but Layout2 can be used without. I am not decided whether Layout2 is good enough to permanently replace Layout1. It will be a pain maintaining both.

TwoWeims, have you loaded it on your DM42 ?


Regards
J
I have not tried it yet. I use my DM42 daily and I don't want to screw it up.
I should try though. I can always restore the DM42 in short order.

I just tried it. It worked pretty well. I see a lot of "not coded yet" messages but the look and feel looks promising.
DM42 restored to saved state and back in operation.
Attachments
Untitled.jpg
Untitled.jpg (57.04 KiB) Viewed 493 times
DM42 SN: 3682
HP-15C and HP-16C (Bought originally by me in the 80's)
HP-67 and HP-55
HP-48G
MK-52

rprosperi
Posts: 502
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Location: New York

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:37 am

toml_12953 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:33 pm
You have functions which are blue on the keyboard listed in a line with a yellow marker (abs, delta%, etc.) Those are blue functions and should never be on the menu line marked as yellow (the middle line) Why have colors at all if you're not going to use them?
The screen shot used to explain this Layout2 in the post you commented on is actually a WP43S "body" that has the yellow and blue indicators on both sides of the 2nd and 3rd line of displayed labels, but this is misleading. Layout 2 is intended to be used on existing DM42 hardware where the body has no indicators on the sides, so there is no "yellow" line. The idea is the yellow functions are already there on the DM42 overlay, so all the home screen lines are the "blue lines" and you can step through them to use via [key], [f] [key] or [f] [f] [key] to access the 1st, 2nd or 3rd line up; they are also aligned to where they are implemented on the main keyboard to help learn where they are (i.e. even though not seen on the overlay, they are still available).
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282

toml_12953
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by toml_12953 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:42 am

rprosperi wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:37 am

The screen shot used to explain this Layout2 in the post you commented on is actually a WP43S "body" that has the yellow and blue indicators on both sides of the 2nd and 3rd line of displayed labels, but this is misleading. Layout 2 is intended to be used on existing DM42 hardware where the body has no indicators on the sides, so there is no "yellow" line. The idea is the yellow functions are already there on the DM42 overlay, so all the home screen lines are the "blue lines" and you can step through them to use via [key], [f] [key] or [f] [f] [key] to access the 1st, 2nd or 3rd line up; they are also aligned to where they are implemented on the main keyboard to help learn where they are (i.e. even though not seen on the overlay, they are still available).
I see. I don't know why but I'm reminded of the time I left my kids at my father's house for a while and when I went to pick them up I didn't see them or him anywhere. As I was walking though the house looking, I heard him say from another room, "Now remember, whites and coloreds should always be separate." I was shocked. My father never seemed like a racist when I was growing up. When I actually saw them, I realized that they were in the laundry room and he was showing them how to do laundry. Whew!
Tom L

My father was a man of the cloth. He was a tailor.

DM42 SN: 00025 (Beta)
SN: 00221 (Shipping)

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:00 am

StatsDoctor wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:06 pm
The development of the alternative key layout and all of the discussion about this is very interesting, and has been a lot of work for those directly involved with this. Is there any chance that SwissMicros would manufacture a 43S and a 43C, or would they (as a small company) be stretched too thin to do this? Did a discussion on this already take place, in which case I may have missed it?

Thanks,

Bob O.
I had a phone call with Michael Steinmann from SwissMicros this week to enquire about his views of the WP43C.

Michael finds the idea of creating an alternative firmware for the hardware of the DM42 exciting.

The WP43C layout of Jaymos is now so good that adapted hardware like specially printed keys and casing is not needed, but overlays will be required for this solution. The advantage is that the hardware already exists and is available. Michael (SwissMicros) agreed to make the required WP43C overlays when the project is ready and will offer them for sale in their shop.

The difference between the WP43S and WP43C which both run on the DM42, is that the WP43S can definitely not be used on the DM42 hardware without at least a keyboard change. Prospects of the WP43S were not discussed with Michael, but I want to confirm that the WP43C can and will not exist without the WP43S and it follows that the same time lines are applicable.

According to suggestions every now and then on the WP43S News forum, there is certainly a lot of work still to be done before the DM42 will run more that test WP43* firmware, therefore these overlays will not be required soon. Indications on the forum suggest "multi-year" to complete. The point of this post is to advise that SwissMicros will back the use of their DM42 by making DM42 overlays available when the time is right.

Michael explained that the use of overlays was part of the DM42 design and that the existing DM42's already allow for this. He explained that there are a number of locating slots provided on the inside edges of the DM42 keyboard to retain overlays.

In terms of users updating their DM42's, SwissMicros' web site already includes full instructions explaining the normal update instructions for the DM42. The procedure for exchanging the firmware from DM42 to WP43* is not that different, so I would not expect difficulties. Also, there is a lively community of users on the these SwissMicros forums.


Dani R.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:26 am

rprosperi wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:37 am
toml_12953 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:33 pm
You have functions which are blue on the keyboard listed in a line with a yellow marker (abs, delta%, etc.) Those are blue functions and should never be on the menu line marked as yellow (the middle line) Why have colors at all if you're not going to use them?
The screen shot used to explain this Layout2 in the post you commented on is actually a WP43S "body" that has the yellow and blue indicators on both sides of the 2nd and 3rd line of displayed labels, but this is misleading. Layout 2 is intended to be used on existing DM42 hardware where the body has no indicators on the sides, so there is no "yellow" line. The idea is the yellow functions are already there on the DM42 overlay, so all the home screen lines are the "blue lines" and you can step through them to use via [key], [f] [key] or [f] [f] [key] to access the 1st, 2nd or 3rd line up; they are also aligned to where they are implemented on the main keyboard to help learn where they are (i.e. even though not seen on the overlay, they are still available).
Well said, Bob. Your short single paragraph says it better than both my long answers.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:14 pm

Perhaps a brief change of the channel, for just a little bit.
Been trying to keep up with all of the changes … Please see drawing below … warts and all. Besides the obvious labeling errors needing an update, and work to be finished populating this sketch/model. Please feed back on what you think: Criticism is valuable … what is wanted, and what is needed as well as what is not. The work is a 20 plus layered drawing in AutoCAD. Very flexible and amenable for playing out ‘what if’ scenarios. It will be available to anyone who would find it useful. It should be completed by Sunday night, this version anyway

LAYOUT 2 - DM42 Strict (2019-08-09).png
LAYOUT 2 - DM42 Strict (2019-08-09).png (134.75 KiB) Viewed 456 times
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:21 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:14 pm
Perhaps a brief change of the channel, for just a little bit.
Been trying to keep up with all of the changes … Please see drawing below … warts and all. Besides the obvious labeling errors needing an update, and work to be finished populating this sketch/model. Please feed back on what you think: Criticism is valuable … what is wanted, and what is needed as well as what is not. The work is a 20 plus layered drawing in AutoCAD. Very flexible and amenable for playing out ‘what if’ scenarios. It will be available to anyone who would find it useful. It should be completed by Sunday night, this version anyway


LAYOUT 2 - DM42 Strict (2019-08-09).png
Hi inautilus,

Great work.

As requested, I will comment very critically. No other reason but to get the best design across.

Please do not confuse the severe criticism with being ungrateful or knocking your work in any way.

1. Just to be clear, the emulator itself generates all icons, glyphs and lines on the background, except for the PNG with brown outlines, and the yellow and double blue dots on the template. External graphics are not useful to the emulator unless reduced to its fonts.

2. The purpose of this layout can then be only to make a physical template for the DM42, excluding the buttons, so I will not deliver any critique on the white button lettering which is already part of the DM42 keyboard.

3. You marked up an older version, which is not according to the file name. No big deal, easy to correlate and correct to whichever version.
I comment on the graphics as presented.

4. I indicated arrows and pointers in the drawing which I discuss below. The proposal for subtly shaded blocks between the FN keys and softkeys is a mockup I have been thinking about for a while, essentially a shaded polygon directing the eye in the direction of the soft key descriptions which simply do not line up with the buttons. Just a guide for the eye, the brain inserts the missing bits to the pixel boxes in LCD as it goes over to the glass screen and soft keys.

5. ** All labels: I don’t like the critical lineup of labels against the button side corners. It feels clinical. Please try shift both such that a visual balance, not mathematical precision, is found - maybe the key could be to keep the spacing between yellow and blue on each button more consistent, letting the outer boundaries fall where they want. I'm sure even to that rule there may be exceptions needed. Visual balance in the end.

6. ** All math labels: x and y must be a serif type font. I can't remember which one, I will look, in the mean time any font like Times New Roman, or XITS will do, maybe even Computer Modern. All the trouble for a few x's ;-)

Either way I can tell you later which worked well from my WP34C layout, but I need to find those backups first - laptop was stolen. I can however remember that I mostly used Neue Haak Grotesk font. In my opinion, it's better than Helvetica. A bit of a mission to find a free version there-of and again, I must look for it, I may have it still, or may have the link to the site where I found a legal free version.

7. Comments, left to right, top to bottom:

FN keys: Try put in a slight shading to line up the soft keys. See mockup.

E+: I like the raised “b”and lower “c”. I don’t like the blue "a”, I think it must be yellow.

1/x: See **. I don’t like the critical lineup of buttons 2 & 4 against the sides of the buttons. 1,3,5 & 6 are ok due to the text being longer.

Sqrt(x): m & s are touching on 3, where m & s are not touching in 5. Prefer not touching.

STO: ENTER & |x| seem to be cut off at the bottom.

RCL: Spacing. Also, the individual font sizes need to be adjusted for visual satisfaction. The % and delta are smaller in the font and need to be the vertical size of the capital letters.

Rdn: Pi needs to be bigger. RUp, clearly needs to be smaller.

ASIN/ACOS/ATAN: Spacing to be closer. P was missed. The arrows to R and to P must be visually sharper, I.e. vertically wider and possibly shorter.

ENTER: I like the boxed effect. I prefer the thinner boxes in the the other texts such as CONV. We already established that the indication that it is a menu, is of lesser importance, and such indication must be subtle. The thinner boxes work. Marginally more space between the bottom of the lettering and the line. Fully symmetrical box spacing please. Also spacing between yellow/blue.

LASTx: I prefer no space before x. Less confusing without space.

UP & DN: more detail on the icon of the programming lines please. Needs to be crisp.

4: Spacing

5, 6, x: consistent spacing please.

+: Spacing.

In terms of fonts: The fonts mentioned will already serve us well. There are a lot more refinements possible for a crisp label, I remember in the WP34C I had more than 8 fonts mixed and matched for size, shape and effect. At this point the most important is: character sizing to be visually consistent, spacing to be visually balanced, serif type labels for math (pi, e, x, y) and a sans serif type font for the label lettering.

I think the lettering, once done, can be converted to its constituent lines and points, and at that point the font width and kerning can be adjusted visually for better visual effect.

I really take my hat to you that you even achieved it this far in CAD. For the WP34C label, I tried in CAD (as I have a Windows License for ACAD), but gave up, eventually did almost 95% in Apple Pages, then tried Inkscape which just not cut it, then exported to CorelDraw and finished the job in there. No better tool in my opinion.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:25 am

Status report, using the previous list numbers. As usual, older DONE items disappeared from the list, and new DONE items are indicated as such.


Layout1

changed in the following ways: Because of [3] I really don’t like Layout 1 anymore and want to leave it in favour of Layout 2..
  1. After working on the real DM42, I swapped the CLR and UNDO. This was mentioned before and is now done.
  2. I swapped the [g] OFF and [f] PRINT around, like on Layout 1 and on the DM42.
  3. I added a BASE screen similar to HP42S, with shortcut menu items for HEX DEC OCT BIN (see below), so # on [g][1/x] became BASE and is now a menu item. It is in the top line and quite obtrusive as a MENU.

    - I don’t like the menu item in between the formatting commands in the top line.
  4. The Layout 1 Alpha letter arrangement has now been updated the same way as the HP42S sequence.
  5. Aligned the [f][Up] and [f][Dn] icons.
Layout 2:
  1. I could not find very little improvements to make.
  2. There is no reason to have the greek a instead of ALPHA especially not on [f][ENTER]. From a legacy point of view, I changed this too ALPHA. a.FN stays due to space.
  3. [f][4] became BASE, due to the base menu that I added instead of the 43S “#”base change symbol. See below. This is even more compatible to 42S.
  4. Aligned the [f][Up] and [f][Dn] icons vertically.
  5. The Layout 2 Alpha letter arrangement was already updated in the previous release and corresponds with DM42.
  6. Firmware snapshot here: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/43C_005_2.pgm.zip. Enjoy playing ... ;-)


Todo / DONE list:

201. DONE. Fix keyboard key shortcuts on the emulator broken due to layout change

Emulator now works with PC/Mac keys:

Code: Select all

FN1  FN2  FN3  FN4  FN5  FN6
q    w    e    r    t    y
a    s    d    f    g    h
ENT  TAB  c    o    BACK
Up   7    8    9    /
Dn   4    5    6    *
Shft 1    2    3    -
Esc  0    .    Ctrl +

p to “print” screen to clipboard.
202. DONE on Layout2. Fix Alpha key layout and menus that is broken due to layout change. Changed the ALPHA letter sequence to DM42 sequence. Achieved by removing all menus and putting them into a soft menu.

204. Check which functions are missing on the main project’s menus and decide if certain functions are to be added to menus. Big job - no time for that now.

205. DONE. On the text entry mode, add a special MENU line for all the commands required during text entry, which are missing due to reshuffling.

206. Add SIGFIG to MODE. Install toggle for SIGFIX. Jaco

206a. SigFig. Jaco
Add SigFig mode as per WP31S, 34S, 34C. This is automatic rounding, which in SIG mode, will display 3.14159 as 3.142 and will display 299792458 as 299 800 000 or 299.8 x10ˆ6 in ENG mode.

207. Fix eRPN stack issue. Jaco.

208. DONE. Fix shift OFF not working in alpha mode.

209. WAIT. Added temporary ALPHA menu in alpha input. Wait for 43S project to fix AlphaMyMenu to fix this..

210. WAIT. Added myAlpha item in HOME menu. This is a placeholder for the MyMenu which is not yet done by main project 43S.

211. WAIT. Hardcode MyMenu on E+ as a default USER key. Wait until main project adds MyMenu.

212. DONE. Bob remarked that the emulator shows the yellow/blue markings, where the DM42 doesn’t have them. Changed the Layout2 Emulator to NOT have yellow/blue marks next to the LCD to not be misleading. Also updated the CSS & PNG files to optionally not even show blue labels

213. Done. Changed error references to ‘CC’ to “COMPLEX”

214. Done. Changed COMPLX back to COMPLEX as it fits.

215. Done. Fixed EXIT in alpha mode does not work

216. Done. Layout1: Swapped OFF to yellow, PRINTx too blue. Now more like DM42.

217. next item


——
Wish list:

304. DONE. Don’t want to wait. Added the BASE menu instead of the # menu.
BASE also includes shortcuts for 64,32,16 & 8 bit word size.
HEX menu. WAIT. Jaco
To consider the need for HEX DEC OCT BIN on a soft menu (compare with # operation). I suggested this to Walter. I wait for answer.
He answered, and will possibly look at this. I’ll wait.

307. WAIT. CUST2. Dani. Dani to advise what is needed.
Creation of CUST1 & CUST 2menu. Variable content. Dani to explain how this is different from MyMenu.
The MyMenu and ASN functionality seems to be exactly what Dani wants. The problem is there is only on MyMenu. He needs to ask Walter to specify more.

308. METRIC Mode. Jaco
Add METRIC mode for ENG mode, to display metric unit prefixes, i.e. display k instead of 10ˆ3, M instead of 10ˆ6, G instead of 10ˆ9, for example an X register of 170000 should display in ENG as 170 x 10ˆ3, but if this is activated, must display 170 k

311. WAIT. Proposed to Inautilus.
See if it is possible to draw lines between the actual FN buttons to the screen labels to guide the eyes. The purpose is to see if it will help match the keys to the narrower soft buttons on screen.

315. Make R.BR remember where you left off, I.e. which regs number.

316. next item

---
To re-consider:

402. DONE. Tested. Remains. Consider FILL and STK swap back to R< and >P. Unlikely to change. But wait to test on DM42. Settled this without waiting for DM42 operation.

407. next item

—-
Reminders for the actual calc layout:

502. Yellow and blue dots above shift button

503. Increase contrast in text letters on the future template

504. Maybe use dotted underlines for menus (for yellow and blue underline) on the future template

505. Mark the “Y” and “N”bright white to help finding the yes/no answer to some confirmations, on the future template

506. Shading (28S style) instead of underlining of menus.

507. next item





In the picture:

LAYOUT1, showing a wart on [g][1/x], i.e. a menu in the top row.
LAYOUT2 without the blue/yellow marks next to the LCD
LAYOUT2 additionally with no blue labels in the emulator, for testing the bare DM42 operation.

Note the layout number, L1, L2 is on the LCD screen.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:26 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:26 am
rprosperi wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:37 am
toml_12953 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:33 pm
You have functions which are blue on the keyboard listed in a line with a yellow marker (abs, delta%, etc.) Those are blue functions and should never be on the menu line marked as yellow (the middle line) Why have colors at all if you're not going to use them?
The screen shot used to explain this Layout2 in the post you commented on is actually a WP43S "body" that has the yellow and blue indicators on both sides of the 2nd and 3rd line of displayed labels, but this is misleading. Layout 2 is intended to be used on existing DM42 hardware where the body has no indicators on the sides, so there is no "yellow" line. The idea is the yellow functions are already there on the DM42 overlay, so all the home screen lines are the "blue lines" and you can step through them to use via [key], [f] [key] or [f] [f] [key] to access the 1st, 2nd or 3rd line up; they are also aligned to where they are implemented on the main keyboard to help learn where they are (i.e. even though not seen on the overlay, they are still available).
Well said, Bob. Your short single paragraph says it better than both my long answers.
I tried to make a proper emulator layout without the confusing colours:

See http://cocoon-creations.com/download/IMG_0392.JPG
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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