43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
User avatar
H2X
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:55 am

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:14 am
The only improvement not breaking the the 42S pattern is as follows, at the cost of not having a scientific EXP menu up north, and not having SAVE on the STO key:

Move the shifts on X<>Y to STO.
Move the shifts on 8 to X<>Y.
Move the shifts on STO to 8.

I quite like the effect. I don’t care about the SAVE. One doesn’t do it often. But I am divided on EXP, but see my argument in the last para.
My CDO is satisfied with the shifted labels on rows 2 and 3 being more mathematical, and SAVE EXP on [8] removes the "problem" with the numerical keys.
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:14 am
The subtract key shifts are indeed movable as long as they stay together.
But what might belong on the subtraction key? I am not sure.
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:14 am
So back to my first comment above - I therefore see a marginal (55%) advantage in moving SAVE & EXP away from STO in favour of your suggestion of pushing direct math to the top 3 rows.
The cost is as you say not having SAVE on [STO], but I accept that it may not be used often enough to deserve that space. Give me some time, I might just agree with you that the price is worth paying... :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

User avatar
H2X
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:03 am

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:14 am
Lastx is already a function in the main project, activated by RCL L. Walter reckoned it should be remembered by users.
Doesn't this mean that you could do STO J, STO K, but not STO L? Users need to remember this?

And can you do RCL X, RCL Y, RCL Z, RCL T etc. to access those registers directly?
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

Dani R.
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:58 am

Hello Jaco

Can you edit the first post in this thread and insert the links to the original project and your branch? You may also be able to describe your experiences of what prerequests, tools, environments are needed to compile the 43S. Maybe this is already sufficiently described in the original project.

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:07 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:10 am
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:55 am
You can set the alphabetical labels back to the original DM42 positions, i.e. K to COS, L to TAN, etc.
Good idea.
I will look at the repercussions, and do if it’s feasible.
J
The repercussions are large to change the text, as the alpha mode brings with it a large number of shifted greek letters, and also some commands. Changing this is a big deal to re-assign the greek lettering and to allow some commands and menus to still come through.

See p109 of this document to see the alpha mode layout: https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/blo ... _0_12s.pdf

The other problem is that my layout has already changed due to the shifts moving, the operators moving and the off button that moved. So I already have to analyse the effects of tis and make the alpha screen work properly.

So for now I will pend the re-arrangement of the alphas, unless I am any way forced to start from a clean page with alpha mode layout.

J

It may be necessary to invest in refactoring so that changes such as repositioning the alphabetic identifiers can be more easily adapted to the specific projects. Thus as branching on the original project. If it is implemented cleanly, it should be possible that such an addition is merged back into the master of the main project. Whoever will implemented it, but not by me at the moment, because I am involved with other stuff.


Regards Dani
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:14 pm

H2X wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:03 am
Jaymos wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:14 am
Lastx is already a function in the main project, activated by RCL L. Walter reckoned it should be remembered by users.
Doesn't this mean that you could do STO J, STO K, but not STO L? Users need to remember this?

And can you do RCL X, RCL Y, RCL Z, RCL T etc. to access those registers directly?
The manual is clear that I,J,K,L are special purpose registers, so you at own risk. p241 of the Owners Manual v0.12.

"...Last x is saved in register L.
General purpose registers: There are 100 numbered global general purpose registers (00 ... 99). And there are I, J, and K serving special purposes in matrix handling (see p. vii), probability distributions (see p. viii), and programming but may be used globally otherwise."

There is a special stack recall sequence, RCL opens a menu showing X, Y, Z & T on the function buttons. RCL A, RCL B, RCL C, RCL D will work (not programmed yet) and the same for I J K & L which already works.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:21 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:58 am
Can you edit the first post in this thread and insert the links to the original project and your branch? You may also be able to describe your experiences of what prerequests, tools, environments are needed to compile the 43S. Maybe this is already sufficiently described in the original project.
Done.
It may be necessary to invest in refactoring so that changes such as repositioning the alphabetic identifiers can be more easily adapted to the specific projects. Thus as branching on the original project. If it is implemented cleanly, it should be possible that such an addition is merged back into the master of the main project. Whoever will implemented it, but not by me at the moment, because I am involved with other stuff.
I understand. But the problem is that the team focusses on the main project, and Walter has a well arranged keyboard. I cannot program, I can only change existing code. That is a lot easier than generating reams of stuff. So I understand that a revamp to allow multiple keyboards and options that can be merged back, is ideal, but I cannot do that.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:25 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:21 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:58 am
Can you edit the first post in this thread and insert the links to the original project and your branch? You may also be able to describe your experiences of what prerequests, tools, environments are needed to compile the 43S. Maybe this is already sufficiently described in the original project.
Done.
Thanks, this will made it easier for me to start compiling a version myself. I work without Mac myself. More on Windows, now also a little bit on Linux.

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:21 pm
It may be necessary to invest in refactoring so that changes such as repositioning the alphabetic identifiers can be more easily adapted to the specific projects. Thus as branching on the original project. If it is implemented cleanly, it should be possible that such an addition is merged back into the master of the main project. Whoever will implemented it, but not by me at the moment, because I am involved with other stuff.
I understand. But the problem is that the team focusses on the main project, and Walter has a well arranged keyboard. I cannot program, I can only change existing code. That is a lot easier than generating reams of stuff. So I understand that a revamp to allow multiple keyboards and options that can be merged back, is ideal, but I cannot do that.
I may have expressed myself somewhat misleadingly. I don't expect you to do this. It's a job I should be able to do, it doesn't require any mathematical knowledge. If I can handle the IDE. And get into the code. But apart from the fact that I'm currently lacking free time, I can't promise that I'll do this part. But it would be an isolated point to contribute something.
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:07 pm

H2X wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:55 am

My CDO is satisfied with the shifted labels on rows 2 and 3 being more mathematical, and SAVE EXP on [8] removes the "problem" with the numerical keys.

The cost is as you say not having SAVE on [STO], but I accept that it may not be used often enough to deserve that space. Give me some time, I might just agree with you that the price is worth paying... :-)

I changed the shifts on X<>Y, STO, 8.

Image

It works for me.

Does it work for you?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:00 am

Some brainstorm ideas.

Put function STATUS on same key as menu FLAGS. Function x! can be removed again. I hope, x! is in the menu PROB. Rename RBR back to REGS. RBR, STATUS and TIMER all on the same line, because they are not programmable. Well, this also applies to ALPHA, SHIFT, USER, PRGM and EXIT. Ok it looks it is not a good idea to put STATUS on a KEY.

I like the position of ASN, USER, EXIT and PRGM, even CAT.

The menus CNST, CONV and PROB on the same line.

The EXP menu on the COS button. The CPX menu near the ENTER button, i.e. on 7 or 8.

The menu PARTS can go to 8 or 7. Or near to the menu PROB.

Like the TEST menu, the FLAGS menu is mainly used for programming.

What stands DRG for?

Difficult, I think, everything can be solved by setting ALPHA to Sigma+. I am just kidding.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Dani R. » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:20 am

Ok, I can imagine what DRG stands for, for me it's enough to have it in the MODE menu.
DM42 SN:00032

User avatar
H2X
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:00 am
Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:11 am

Jaymos wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:07 pm
Does it work for you?
It is getting real close! Excellent work so far! 8-)

I am going to let it simmer some more, but the questions I ask myself are about the HP42S / DM42 labels that have been moved to blue labels (g) instead of yellow (f), and if any of the labels in the bottom right 4x4 might be moved around.

Also, x! on the multiplication key is a brilliant idea, but weakened by the absence of equally brilliant options on the other arithmetic operation keys. As it stands, the case of keeping the original label (PROB) might be as strong or stronger.

And as Dani has mentioned, DRG might also be questioned.

I'll get back when I am done simmering. :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

Post Reply