43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:00 pm

My last proposal regarding menus more detailed.

It would be tried to imitate the behaviour of the DM42 more exactly. The listings in the catalogs are displayed as menu lines. Due to the limitation of the 42S you could only display one line at a time, indices indicate that you can find further menu entries with the cursor keys. The direction in which you want to go is up to you. Walter has recognized for the WP43S that the display of the DM42 can show more than one line at a time. So key, first toggle function [f], second toggle function [g].

With the WP43C you don't have a separate key for the second toggle function. So either way you have no direct access to the function / menu you are looking for. The toggle key behaves like a drag pointer. However, this is the task of the cursor keys to be drag pointers. I think I exaggerated with seven menu lines, because the clarity suffers again substantially. The optimum should be a maximum of four lines. If the menu is opened, the most important entry is at the top left, the top line is automatically selected. If you just see that the functionality you are looking for is not in these 24 positions, you can use the cursor key to scroll up to the next page with a maximum of four lines. If the function you are looking for is on one of the 24 positions, you must now press the cursor key at maximum three times until you reach the lowest, most unimportant line.

I think this would correspond more to the functionality of the DM42.

Only as a suggestion.
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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm

Patrick wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:58 am

I fully agree with the objective of using the calculator as it is, without using a template. The proposed modifications are in line with this. I didn't take the time to analyze everything in depth, but it seems to me that[f]0 is also available and could be used with the [.] key to move the functions related to fractions. I have been working for a very long time with a 42s and a 32SII that deals with fractions in a very interesting way. I always thought that what the 42s lacked was this very effective management of fractions. The fact that they are connected to the [.] key seems very intuitive to me.
The [f][.] is taken by SHOW in the current layout and in the proposal discussed above. Fractions display belong in the top blue row, with the d.ms .d and h.ms display formatting switches. I doubt that they will come down. I have an interesting suggestion for the fractions staying up top in the coming mail - I did some shuffling with scissors and paper.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:14 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:00 pm
My last proposal regarding menus more detailed.

It would be tried to imitate the behaviour of the DM42 more exactly. The listings in the catalogs are displayed as menu lines. Due to the limitation of the 42S you could only display one line at a time, indices indicate that you can find further menu entries with the cursor keys. The direction in which you want to go is up to you. Walter has recognized for the WP43S that the display of the DM42 can show more than one line at a time. So key, first toggle function [f], second toggle function [g].

With the WP43C you don't have a separate key for the second toggle function. So either way you have no direct access to the function / menu you are looking for. The toggle key behaves like a drag pointer. However, this is the task of the cursor keys to be drag pointers. I think I exaggerated with seven menu lines, because the clarity suffers again substantially. The optimum should be a maximum of four lines. If the menu is opened, the most important entry is at the top left, the top line is automatically selected. If you just see that the functionality you are looking for is not in these 24 positions, you can use the cursor key to scroll up to the next page with a maximum of four lines. If the function you are looking for is on one of the 24 positions, you must now press the cursor key at maximum three times until you reach the lowest, most unimportant line.

I think this would correspond more to the functionality of the DM42.

Only as a suggestion.
I understand the suggestion for lines, and arrows up and down. It can work well.

As a start, we must first determine if the concept of a bare DM42 layout that works. Next post for that.

I know menus can cover it, and I would like to discuss that interface at length still. The problem right now is I am not able to redo the system, arrows, lines, etc. now, I am able to create new menus using the infra system as it stands. I will try creating 7 single line menus (primary keys only) running through the seven lines of keys. As a start. And then talk about how further.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:45 pm

I reshuffled some paper bits to see if a suitable layout can be achieved.


I feel this is less optimal than the currently accepted layout, but it is not bad.

Line 2: Added Sigma- and shifting the fractions both to the blue slots on the right. Feels good to have the formatting still up there.

Line 3: Moved both COMPLEX and CPX menu to shift ENTER. We are loosing [|x|] and [angle] on the STO button and I want to retain them for menu-less complex operation. Move down to blue [x] and [-], the logic is to keep math with the operators at least.

Line 4:Move both Alpha and a.FN to ENTER. I really do not want to loose DROP, so I move it next to LastX to keep stack stuff on X<>Y.
Also swapped the shifts around on [<--]. Muscle memory wins. I find on the real buttons that muscle men=mory goes for [f][CLEAR].

Line 5: Moved EQN to [f][7] (SOLVER). EQN contains a solver.
Moved ADV to [f][8] (INTEGRAL). ADV contains the integral functions. Also sum-of, product-of etc.
VIEW and CNST both move from yellow to blue on the same buttons.

Line 6: Moved # to BASE. See below.
Line 7: Moved P.FN to [3] and I/O to [-]. See below.
Line 8: Moved OFF to yellow. Moved PrintX to blue. See below.

As Sigma- was added, there is now one extra label and one label must therefore go. I chose TIMER to be removed, to go onto a submenu of CLK.

I re-arranged [f][0], [g][0], [g][4],[g][R/S] and [g][+] partly because of vacancies, I had to choose new positions for a few labels. The logic here includes:

HOME must be on [f][0] (SETUP) as [0] is very convenient, and HOME is now required if you do not have real blue labels on your DM42.
I also wanted to bring INFO next to home, so CLK had to go, and went up to [4].
STK and PARTS were allocated based on the number of letters, i.e. PRGM STK and CAT PARTS.

---

So, looking at the bare DM42, in terms of the yellow labels that are visible:


E-, yˆx, xˆ2, 10ˆx, Exchange, GTO: All 100% same name and function

COMPLEX, %, pi, ASIN, ACOS, ATAN: 100% same name and function

ALPHA, LASTx, MODES, DISP, CLEAR: 100% same name and function

BST: 100%

SOLVER: has the EQN menu which includes equation functions for f'', f', integral f, and Solver.
Integral f(x): has the ADV menu which includes integrals, sums, products.
MATRIX, STAT: 100%


SST, BASE, CONVERT, FLAGS, PROB: 100% same name and function

F, ASSIGN: 100% same name and function
CUSTOM: 50%. Has the USER command. Similar, not the same, but OK I think.
PGM.FCN: 100% same name and function
PRINT: 100%. Has the I/O menu including the print menu

OFF: 100% same name and function
SETUP: 0%. Has the HOME/INFO functions to facilitate replacement menus for the missing blues.
SHOW, PRGM, CATALOG: 100% same name and function








Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 215
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm

As you guessed, I don't like some things.

There's another menu on the third row.
It now has some menu/function assignments. Especially VIEW is out of line.
For TIMER I have not yet formed an opinion, whether this function needs a key assignment perhaps nevertheless.
Sigma- really hurts, even more than Sigma+. Maybe you should assign these positions differently than on the DM42.
Will the functionality of ALPHA be 100% compatible to the DM42? [XEQ] [ENTER] is equivalent to [XEQ] [shift] [ENTER], so you don't have to press the yellow shift key to start typing the label name.
I'm still very sure that SAVE doesn't need any assignment on a key.

Exciting mock up, maybe you can fix it?
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:52 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
As you guessed, I don't like some things.

There's another menu on the third row.
It now has some menu/function assignments. Especially VIEW is out of line.
For TIMER I have not yet formed an opinion, whether this function needs a key assignment perhaps nevertheless.
Sigma- really hurts, even more than Sigma+. Maybe you should assign these positions differently than on the DM42.
Will the functionality of ALPHA be 100% compatible to the DM42? [XEQ] [ENTER] is equivalent to [XEQ] [shift] [ENTER], so you don't have to press the yellow shift key to start typing the label name.
I'm still very sure that SAVE doesn't need any assignment on a key.

Exciting mock up, maybe you can fix it?
Thanks Dani, I appreciate your insight.

My immediate thoughts after starting to try out the DM42 running the WP43C, was that my fingers wanted more of 42S. Muscle memory.

I will try fix it up. Even if it is only an alternative compile version if people want to try it on the DM42 - it is easy to make a second layout possibility. Maybe I like it so much I keep it.
Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
There's another menu on the third row.
[g][STO] must be complex related, to fit COMPLEX.
So the only possibility is to put |x| on [g][STO]. Can do that and move [angle] back in [g][1/x].
Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
It now has some menu/function assignments. Especially VIEW is out of line.
I really don't like VIEW there at [g][7]. But where else?
Ok, I try move VIEW one down to [4].
And return CPX to original, and move DROP to [g][7], under ENTER, this way 1,4,7,Up,Dn all have no menus on [g].

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
For TIMER I have not yet formed an opinion, whether this function needs a key assignment perhaps nevertheless.
Timer will be non-programmable, and can be inside the CLK menu if needed. In today's age, the question is really if you will use a timer in the DM42 instead of on your arm or on your smartphone. Looking for one less label, we have to pick one unless we ditch E- again.

Either way, moving CLK and TIMER to the [*] and [-].
Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
Sigma- really hurts, even more than Sigma+. Maybe you should assign these positions differently than on the DM42.
O yes - it really hurts. I agree, forget E-. If the DM42 user presses that, it won't work.It will change the fraction mode.

I think the ONLY upside is the user always has a spot for a user defined key, and top left is a good location to remember. Maybe call up MyMenu with a USER key.

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
Will the functionality of ALPHA be 100% compatible to the DM42? [XEQ] [ENTER] is equivalent to [XEQ] [shift] [ENTER], so you don't have to press the yellow shift key to start typing the label name.
That remains to be seen. The ReM states on p145 of 271 something like that:

Code: Select all

Instead of picking an operation from a menu or catalog, you can also call it by name using XEQ as follows:
1. Press XEQ.
2. Press ALPHA. You are in AIM thereafter; see Section 2 of the OM
for the virtual keyboard applying in this mode.
3. Key in the name of the function wanted. Case may be
important, subscript or superscript is not.
Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 pm
I'm still very sure that SAVE doesn't need any assignment on a key.
I am sorry, I disagree. I really want to keep it. SAVE stores the whole RAM to Flash for a quick backup. I think similar to pressing CTRL-S in your word processor often - I very often do and can understand that this state-save command gives same comfort that things are not only in RAM.


More comments?
Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 215
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:00 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:52 pm
...

My immediate thoughts after starting to try out the DM42 running the WP43C, was that my fingers wanted more of 42S. Muscle memory.

I will try fix it up. Even if it is only an alternative compile version if people want to try it on the DM42 - it is easy to make a second layout possibility. Maybe I like it so much I keep it.

...
I agree, it probably makes sense to work out two layouts, one where a cleanly worked out overlay is needed anyway, and a second one that theoretically works without any overlay at all.

The first layout can be trimmed a bit more towards compatibility to the DM42, but I don't see much space at the moment. The second layout can be trimmed a bit more to the first layout. In the second layout, if you actually work with 24 entries in the menus, you could probably display the [g] functions on the first [HOME] page and the [g] menus on the second. Or vice versa. Without overlay you would move a bit more in the [Home], but you can try the image without any problems. I think that's how it could work.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:13 am

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:00 pm
I agree, it probably makes sense to work out two layouts, one where a cleanly worked out overlay is needed anyway, and a second one that theoretically works without any overlay at all.

The first layout can be trimmed a bit more towards compatibility to the DM42, but I don't see much space at the moment. The second layout can be trimmed a bit more to the first layout. In the second layout, if you actually work with 24 entries in the menus, you could probably display the [g] functions on the first [HOME] page and the [g] menus on the second. Or vice versa. Without overlay you would move a bit more in the [Home], but you can try the image without any problems. I think that's how it could work.

I created two layouts in the code, allowing for our optimal layout (Layout 1, left), and the DM42 strict layout (Layout 2, right).

I will first create a few additional pages under HOME to allow for the missing blue functions, and then I will share the DM42 image for some playing and testing.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 215
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am

I don't have the scissors with me, but I have a few remarks from me again.

I still have a question about "#", maybe you already answered it, but I am too lazy to look for this answer, this thread has already taken a certain length. Is it the legacy function to make it compatible with the WP34S, or is it an abbreviation for calling a menu. Or in other words, in which menu can BASE from the 42S be found in WP43? Maybe these are two questions and you can see again that I didn't really work with the WP34S, more than just start the simulator.

Layout 1: I think you can make the move P.FN to [f][3], PARTS to [g][+], I/O to [f][-] and STK to [g][R/S] without it hurting too much.

Layout 2: Actually it doesn't matter where ALPHA.FN is, maybe there are some functions in this menu which will be used mainly for programs. I plead to leave DROP at [g][ENTER]. Just to delete 'X' you don't need DROP, but if I want to get rid of 'X' and 'Y', but copied 'T' to 'Z' and 'Y' at the same time, I think I'll get used to calling DROP twice.

Maybe more, if I have slept over everything again and am back with my scissors.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:07 am

Dani R. wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am
I still have a question about "#", maybe you already answered it, but I am too lazy to look for this answer, this thread has already taken a certain length. Is it the legacy function to make it compatible with the WP34S, or is it an abbreviation for calling a menu. Or in other words, in which menu can BASE from the 42S be found in WP43? Maybe these are two questions and you can see again that I didn't really work with the WP34S, more than just start the simulator.
The WP34C works differently altogether - no menus. So let's disregard 34.

in the 43, the "#" calls the base change direct input screen, which is 100% compatible in function with 42S BASE. The direct input screen looks different at the moment, but I asked Walter in the other forum to change it to have a menu with HEX OCT DEC BIN shortcut menu which will also look like the 42S then. If he does not create this menu, I will. I give him some time before I do, because I think it is essential for the whole project to have it this way.
Dani R. wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am
Layout 1: I think you can make the move P.FN to [f][3], PARTS to [g][+], I/O to [f][-] and STK to [g][R/S] without it hurting too much.

Layout 2: Actually it doesn't matter where ALPHA.FN is, maybe there are some functions in this menu which will be used mainly for programs. I plead to leave DROP at [g][ENTER]. Just to delete 'X' you don't need DROP, but if I want to get rid of 'X' and 'Y', but copied 'T' to 'Z' and 'Y' at the same time, I think I'll get used to calling DROP twice.
I will look at the suggestions, thank you. I will comment in the next post.
I am currently creating the menu screens, and will send the new screens and DM42 firmware to test, and comment.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, PB700; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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