43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:10 am

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:55 am
You can set the alphabetical labels back to the original DM42 positions, i.e. K to COS, L to TAN, etc.
Good idea.
I will look at the repercussions, and do if it’s feasible.
J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:02 pm

I am quite ok with the bottom half of the menus not really coinciding with the 42S menus.

But for a quick exercise in aligning it even more, I jotted down some easy changes to line up a lot more.

I think it is nice. Comments?

Image

Spelling: USR meant USER.
I didn’t bother with the lines underneath menus for this mock up.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:54 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:02 pm
Comments?
I immediately liked SHOW MODE on the [CHS] key - the proximity to VIEW DISP agrees well with my particular flavour of CDO (same as OCD, but spelled correctly).

What does the "<" (the (g) shifted option of [x<>y]) mean? If it means "less than", where is "greater than" (and the rest of the family)?

And since you are reconsidering the (g) shifted options on the arrow keys - is there some logic to placing FILL as the (g) shifted option on the UP arrow? Which might move STK to the DOWN arrow? Somehow placing stack related stuff on the arrows make sense to me.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:14 pm

H2X wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:54 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:02 pm
Comments?
I immediately liked SHOW MODE on the [CHS] key - the proximity to VIEW DISP agrees well with my particular flavour of CDO (same as OCD, but spelled correctly).

What does the "<" (the (g) shifted option of [x<>y]) mean? If it means "less than", where is "greater than" (and the rest of the family)?

And since you are reconsidering the (g) shifted options on the arrow keys - is there some logic to placing FILL as the (g) shifted option on the UP arrow? Which might move STK to the DOWN arrow? Somehow placing stack related stuff on the arrows make sense to me.
The < is a placeholder for angle, placed next to magnitude.

I really like the logic of ENTER, FILL & STK in vertical arrangement. With CNST going to [g] [7].
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:48 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:14 pm
The < is a placeholder for angle, placed next to magnitude.

I really like the logic of ENTER, FILL & STK in vertical arrangement. With CNST going to [g] [7].
Perfect! :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:52 pm

The latest changes made.

I have another work trip coming up, so no more work till the weekend.

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:07 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:10 am
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:55 am
You can set the alphabetical labels back to the original DM42 positions, i.e. K to COS, L to TAN, etc.
Good idea.
I will look at the repercussions, and do if it’s feasible.
J
The repercussions are large to change the text, as the alpha mode brings with it a large number of shifted greek letters, and also some commands. Changing this is a big deal to re-assign the greek lettering and to allow some commands and menus to still come through.

See p109 of this document to see the alpha mode layout: https://gitlab.com/Over_score/wp43s/blo ... _0_12s.pdf

The other problem is that my layout has already changed due to the shifts moving, the operators moving and the off button that moved. So I already have to analyse the effects of tis and make the alpha screen work properly.

So for now I will pend the re-arrangement of the alphas, unless I am any way forced to start from a clean page with alpha mode layout.

J
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 pm

Please have a thorough look at the grouping of the keys now.

I think the result is good and very practically arranged.

I think the double tap shift key works great and the dots indicating the shift line selected is good.

j
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by H2X » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:24 am

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:11 pm
Please have a thorough look at the grouping of the keys now.

I think the result is good and very practically arranged.

I think the double tap shift key works great and the dots indicating the shift line selected is good.

j
Very well done, Jaco!

I like this a lot, and any concrete improvements are getting increasingly harder to find.

This is probably just a brainfart, but my CDO brain suddenly got stuck on the shifted modes of the [8] key - they look somewhat lost among the other number keys. R<- ->P has some visual resemblance to [X<>Y]. Would it do any good to move them to that key? I am not sure.

I notice that you have placed x! on the multiplication key, which is the perfect place for it IMO - because of multiplication semantics. Might a b/c d/c be moved to the division key because of similar division semantics? Might something then in turn move to the upper left key?

The addition key seems non-negotiable, but might the subtraction key also be reconsidered?

Any HP42S shifted labels worth reconsidering? LAST x?

Do we need SETUP, like on the DM42?

Any other things worth reconsidering? The WP43S has really clever soft keys, maybe they will prove some of the current shifted modes of "hard" keys obsolete. Time will tell. The good thing with your approach is that faceplates can be replaced.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout

Post by Jaymos » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:14 am

H2X wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:24 am

I like this a lot, and any concrete improvements are getting increasingly harder to find.

This is probably just a brainfart, but my CDO brain suddenly got stuck on the shifted modes of the [8] key - they look somewhat lost among the other number keys. R<- ->P has some visual resemblance to [X<>Y]. Would it do any good to move them to that key? I am not sure.
The only improvement not breaking the the 42S pattern is as follows, at the cost of not having a scientific EXP menu up north, and not having SAVE on the STO key:

Move the shifts on X<>Y to STO.
Move the shifts on 8 to X<>Y.
Move the shifts on STO to 8.

I quite like the effect. I don’t care about the SAVE. One doesn’t do it often. But I am divided on EXP, but see my argument in the last para.

I notice that you have placed x! on the multiplication key, which is the perfect place for it IMO - because of multiplication semantics.
I cannot take credit for x! as it is like that on the main project.

Might a b/c d/c be moved to the division key because of similar division semantics? Might something then in turn move to the upper left key?
I like the logic of moving the a b/c d/c and would love moving it down to divide, but the divide key shifts are fixed by 42S pattern. I prefer to rather stick with it there.

The addition key seems non-negotiable, but might the subtraction key also be reconsidered?
The subtract key shifts are indeed movable as long as they stay together.

Any HP42S shifted labels worth reconsidering? LAST x?
Lastx is already a function in the main project, activated by RCL L. Walter reckoned it should be remembered by users. Maybe he reconsiders. I Can’t yet put fixed text on the emulator screens I share here, but I will definitely place “Lx” above L on the actual faceplate.

Do we need SETUP, like on the DM42?
I don’t know. I installed the very early sample from the main project dev site onto my DM42 and I managed the process without SETUP.

Also, the DM42 has a lot of integration into the OS which I don’t think we’ll have (soon) due to the effort required.

Any other things worth reconsidering? The WP43S has really clever soft keys, maybe they will prove some of the current shifted modes of "hard" keys obsolete. Time will tell. The good thing with your approach is that faceplates can be replaced.
I think you touch on the essence here. I dislike both my 32Sii and 42S for very different reasons, i.e. the one is too cluttered and limited, and the other is too much menu driven while sufficiently specified.

This is why I see the great advantage of this WP43S - a sweet combination of both systems, with adding a [g] shift wisely and combining all the legacy of the 34S.

So back to my first comment above - I therefore see a marginal (55%) advantage in moving SAVE & EXP away from STO in favour of your suggestion of pushing direct math to the top 3 rows.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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