43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:59 am

The black, printed overlays to the ROM are 0.3 mm thick, the ones for self-editing (right) are 0.4 mm thick. This is already a noticeable difference in the hand. Take the WP43C and use the UNITS menu to convert this. :)


I have no idea about material. I know there are those that burn faster, those that almost don't burn and those that you almost can't see if is burning. Too long ago. And I will not make a flame test.

The black, printed overlays to the ROMs are matt on the back, the ones for self-editing (right) are shiny on the back and still smell.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:50 am

inautilus wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:45 am
@ Dani

Do you know what the material is... very curious!
@inautilus, I still have no idea what kind of material it could be, but maybe these photos will help you to determine the material. Or in the forum of the hpmuseum someone knows from which materials the overlays for the HP-41 were made.
Attachments
HP41_ROM_overlay.jpg
HP41_ROM_overlay.jpg (221.2 KiB) Viewed 327 times
HP41_edit_overlay.jpg
HP41_edit_overlay.jpg (198.58 KiB) Viewed 327 times
DM42 SN:00032

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TwoWeims
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Location: Prescott, AZ

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by TwoWeims » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 pm

https://www.rowmark.com/products/ada-alternative

This is the material that I was going to use for my attempt.
It is 1/32" thick. It comes in black and a very dark brown. It is flexible but not brittle.
I have had very good success printing on it with UV Cured ink.
DM42 SN: 3682
HP-15C and HP-16C (Bought originally by me in the 80's)
HP-67 and HP-55
HP-48G
MK-52

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Jaymos
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:07 pm

TwoWeims wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 pm
https://www.rowmark.com/products/ada-alternative

This is the material that I was going to use for my attempt.
It is 1/32" thick. It comes in black and a very dark brown. It is flexible but not brittle.
I have had very good success printing on it with UV Cured ink.
Thank you for the info.
Looks good.
I am very interested to have one.

Material is 0.79 mm thick. This material will be too thick (opinion: not measured) to fit the 6 location holes on the sides of the DM42 keyboard. That means it can be used for a loose overlay, or attached with adhesive of course.

Also, the material being black, the menu item shading can only be lighter. Maybe if the material colour is dark brown, black shading could still be possible, depending on the contrast achievable with this ink on this substrate.

Is there any cad specification you have for inautilus who is busy with an Autocad layout?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Location: Norway

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by H2X » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:08 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:07 pm
TwoWeims wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 pm
https://www.rowmark.com/products/ada-alternative

This is the material that I was going to use for my attempt.
It is 1/32" thick. It comes in black and a very dark brown. It is flexible but not brittle.
I have had very good success printing on it with UV Cured ink.
Thank you for the info.
Looks good.
I am very interested to have one.

...
I'd be interested as well.

I am still following this project, but I try to shut up when I have nothing significant to contribute. And vice versa... :-)
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

Dani R.
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:59 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:14 pm
The presumption is that we all like Layout 1, as we haven't heard complaints on Layout 1 for a while. The challenge is,

Is Layout 1 is the ultimate keyboard according to my goals? Or is the challenger more practical.

LEFT is LAYOUT 1

RIGHT is the challenger LAYOUT 1A

Thoughts? I quite like the challenger.

Image
Just so I don't forget. Still a few final(?) moves...

LAYOUT 1.
INTS(g)[ * ], EQN(g)[ 3 ], ADV(g)[ - ], CLK(g)[ 4 ], a.FN(g)[ 0 ].

LAYOUT 1A, already discussed.
CLK(g)[ 4 ], a.FN(g)[ - ].
DM42 SN:00032

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TwoWeims
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Location: Prescott, AZ

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by TwoWeims » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:33 am

Jaymos wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:07 pm
TwoWeims wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:15 pm
https://www.rowmark.com/products/ada-alternative

This is the material that I was going to use for my attempt.
It is 1/32" thick. It comes in black and a very dark brown. It is flexible but not brittle.
I have had very good success printing on it with UV Cured ink.
Thank you for the info.
Looks good.
I am very interested to have one.

Material is 0.79 mm thick. This material will be too thick (opinion: not measured) to fit the 6 location holes on the sides of the DM42 keyboard. That means it can be used for a loose overlay, or attached with adhesive of course.

Also, the material being black, the menu item shading can only be lighter. Maybe if the material colour is dark brown, black shading could still be possible, depending on the contrast achievable with this ink on this substrate.

Is there any cad specification you have for inautilus who is busy with an Autocad layout?
If I can get a DXF File or at least a dimensioned drawing I can cut a sample in black.
I will have to order the dark brown.
DM42 SN: 3682
HP-15C and HP-16C (Bought originally by me in the 80's)
HP-67 and HP-55
HP-48G
MK-52

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Jaymos
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:08 pm

inautilus wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:59 am
I think you may not have gone through the 6 pages of the pdf document. :)
I did not see it you are right. I could not open the file and went to the older files instead.

When I retried now, the PDF opened. Thanks.

The question I have: Is this generic information on printing, or from a specific place that can do it for us?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Location: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, CANADA

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:06 pm

This was general information I clipped and pasted ... that I thought would be helpful for the project. You had posed a question ... so I returned an answer.

I was fortunate to have met the two owners several years back when touring their production facility. They are really fine people ... who run a World Class operation, just down the road. My nephew was working there as well for the summer between semesters before he heads back to university (engineering). I don't know what the medium to long term plans are ... and I don't want to step on anyone's toes ... but these guys could really hit the ball out of the park, if that was deemed desirable. They do AMAZING work ...

I've attached their website

https://www.protocase.com/about/quick-tour.php

Also, go to the Linked section below ... and then cycle through the 'Digital Printing Samples' to get a very good sense of what they can do.
https://www.protocase.com/products/mate ... igital.php


Both being engineers, they very well may be hard-wired to be naturally interested in Project 43. :D
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
Posts: 323
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:55 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:59 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:14 pm
The presumption is that we all like Layout 1, as we haven't heard complaints on Layout 1 for a while. The challenge is,

Is Layout 1 is the ultimate keyboard according to my goals? Or is the challenger more practical.
Just so I don't forget. Still a few final(?) moves...

LAYOUT 1.
INTS(g)[ * ], EQN(g)[ 3 ], ADV(g)[ - ], CLK(g)[ 4 ], a.FN(g)[ 0 ].

LAYOUT 1A, already discussed.
CLK(g)[ 4 ], a.FN(g)[ - ].
There were not a lot of comments on the L1 vs. L1A challenge. We already had 100+ views since and no more comments, therefore I assume that both contenders are strong and there is no preference.

I considered Dani's change suggestions on BOTH L1 and L1A, and I agree that both groupings are improving the respective L1 and L1A usability. Most interestingly, I previously had BITS and INTS above each another on g-shift, and since Dani suggested them to be next to one another on g-shift, it is just so much more effective. I guess it is because we read from left to right, not top to bottom.

I liked these last [g] changes, so I also changed Layout 2 (DM42 no label set) the same way, i.e. INTS(g)[ * ], EQN(g)[ 3 ], ADV(g)[ - ].

We have marginal improvement again, it is never finished it seems, maybe it is like y = 1 - exp (-t) ;-). So now there is a bigger problem, with both the revised L1 and L1A now being better and the differences even smaller. Essentially, the main differences now are the position of EQN & ADV (either on [3],[-] or on [7],[8]), and the position of VIEW (either with REGS or with SHOW).

Clean image of L1, L1A & L2 without the markups below: http://cocoon-creations.com/download/IMG_0478.JPG.


So, do we have opinions on the new L1 and L1A ?

Image
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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