43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:37 pm

Which renderings ... versions, configurations ... would yo like for Saturday.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:41 pm

inautilus wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:37 pm
Which renderings ... versions, configurations ... would yo like for Saturday.
I would like to print all four of the final four you sent in the quad-pic, will get more if your send more by then.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:03 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:25 pm
Grouping, I read grouping again. I have prepared something.
Jaymos wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:29 pm
Below the L1A layout, with the logical groups marked. Interesting.
I mean, it's really interesting. Some thoughts about the possible layout 1B, which can't be realized because we said that ALPHA.FN[g][ 4 ] and SHOW[f][ . ] are determined. But what do I care about my chatter from yesterday?

I have now seen what I have suspected for some time. CLK wants to get close to CONV. So CLK[g][ 4 ]. But how can you explain that ALPHA.FN is not next to ALPHA? Not at all, unless you would rename the menu to TXT.FN, i.e. TXT.FN[g][ - ], near the programming functions.

You could also exchange TIMER and SHOW. I don't think SHOW is stored in the muscle memory.

But these two substitutions are hypothetical. :lol:
;-) Your analysis make me often question everything I said - that is a good thing.

First - I went to check in the manual, a.FN has not one function that I will manually use on a calculator - searching text, rotating text strings, copy a character out to X, etc., typical things one would do in a programatic way. So, you are right, there is no real reason why Alpha and Alpha.FN belongs together except symmetry, and good reason to move a.FN to [g][-] directly in the programming group. Great idea. We do not even have to sugar coat by changing the name to TXT I think.

So in my opinion CLK and a.FN can swap.

TIMER: I think timer is standalone, and ideal next to the shift especially if you really need the stopwatch quick.
At the same time SHOW: my sense of order just wants it on the 42S position. So I think this group correction does not feel right.

But let's pend CLK and a.FN swap to my todo list until we get more response. I like it in principle.

Question: what about HOME and VIEW swap. I don't think so, I won't like HOME in row 8. I prefer it in row 5. I think another "academic" group change that does not feel right.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:15 pm

Dani R. wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:50 pm
To give you a better impression of how an overlay might look like, I have attached three pictures. First the DM42 and the Text Editor overlay for the DM-41. Then the two crops in the same scale from the DM-41 Text Editor overlay and from the DM42.
I dusted off my old TI 58C.
I understand overlays to be more temporary by definition ... fitted on or removed from a more permanent faceplate. Some type of rigid polymer. See photos in the link

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing



I assumed that what is needed for the 43 is a more permanent treatment - a second skin. Most likely affixed with a semi-permanent adhesive. A rigid thin metal skin suitable to receiving a variety of types of polychrome metal coatings.

what are your views ...
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:45 pm

inautilus wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:15 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:50 pm
To give you a better impression of how an overlay might look like, I have attached three pictures. First the DM42 and the Text Editor overlay for the DM-41. Then the two crops in the same scale from the DM-41 Text Editor overlay and from the DM42.
I dusted off my old TI 58C.
I understand overlays to be more temporary by definition ... fitted on or removed from a more permanent faceplate. Some type of rigid polymer. See photos in the link

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RD8dI ... AKcnMLLOpH_

I assumed that what is needed for the 43 is a more permanent treatment - a second skin. Most likely affixed with a semi-permanent adhesive. A rigid thin metal skin suitable to receiving a variety of types of polychrome metal coatings.

what are your views ...
404 error on that file.

Personally I want something rigid and thin that can be removed - thin metal will be perfect. Weak adhesive maybe. I don't plan to buy another DM42 - 1 x DM42 must be ok. At the same time, I understand some may want it m ore permanent - good adhesive should work for that.

The template Dani sent today seems to be less rigid and I don't particularly like the crispness of the print. But that is the history - the conversation about what lies ahead must still happen so let's wait on that.

Another member here also mentioned the possibility of laser and print. Not sure how that works.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 pm

Two Weims ...? I think it was on the laser printing.

Must have missed the template sent by Dani ...
where can it be viewed? Thanks
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:55 pm

inautilus wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 pm
Two Weims ...? I think it was on the laser printing.

Must have missed the template sent by Dani ...
where can it be viewed? Thanks
Yes. him.

Page 40 of this forum.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Dani R.
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:13 pm

inautilus wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:15 pm
Dani R. wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:50 pm
To give you a better impression of how an overlay might look like, I have attached three pictures. First the DM42 and the Text Editor overlay for the DM-41. Then the two crops in the same scale from the DM-41 Text Editor overlay and from the DM42.
I dusted off my old TI 58C.
I understand overlays to be more temporary by definition ... fitted on or removed from a more permanent faceplate. Some type of rigid polymer. See photos in the link

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing



I assumed that what is needed for the 43 is a more permanent treatment - a second skin. Most likely affixed with a semi-permanent adhesive. A rigid thin metal skin suitable to receiving a variety of types of polychrome metal coatings.

what are your views ...

I have to quote myselfe.
Dani R. wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:00 am

Michael explained that the use of overlays was part of the DM42 design and that the existing DM42's already allow for this. He explained that there are a number of locating slots provided on the inside edges of the DM42 keyboard to retain overlays.
The basic design seems to me to be solved differently than I am used to on my 41C. I think this variety of slots will ensure a safe recording as long as the overlay is stiff enough. But since we don't have any overlays in our hands yet, we can't say anything.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:15 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:03 pm
...

So in my opinion CLK and a.FN can swap.

TIMER: I think timer is standalone, and ideal next to the shift especially if you really need the stopwatch quick.
At the same time SHOW: my sense of order just wants it on the 42S position. So I think this group correction does not feel right.

But let's pend CLK and a.FN swap to my todo list until we get more response. I like it in principle.

Question: what about HOME and VIEW swap. I don't think so, I won't like HOME in row 8. I prefer it in row 5. I think another "academic" group change that does not feel right.
As usual, I agree with you on how to get the essential out of the unimportant that I throw into space. The 8th line can be left as defined in L1A. I also like HOME in the 5th line better in L1A. In L2 it makes sense to have HOME in the 8th line. Therefore probably the doubts.

Together with the CLK <-> a.FN Swap I think that L1A is at least equivalent to L1.

I think people like Guenter should check if their thoughts and suggestions were implemented with L1/L1A and which layout you can work better with.

I'll probably make my mark on L1A as well.
DM42 SN:00032

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TwoWeims
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by TwoWeims » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:55 pm
inautilus wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 pm
Two Weims ...? I think it was on the laser printing.

Must have missed the template sent by Dani ...
where can it be viewed? Thanks
Yes. him.

Page 40 of this forum.
It is actually UV Cured inkjet printed on a suitable substrate and then laser cut.
It could be removable or adhesive backed. It shouldn't be too permanent so it can be replaced when the WP44C comes out...
DM42 SN: 3682
HP-15C and HP-16C (Bought originally by me in the 80's)
HP-67 and HP-55
HP-48G
MK-52

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