43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
ctrclckws
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:30 pm

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by ctrclckws » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:37 am

#5 is stunning and easier to read. Could definitely go for that style.

Amazing the thought and effort that goes into making something like this usable and functional.

User avatar
inautilus
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, CANADA

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:18 pm

For those gravitating towards Rendering 5. (with the punched up colour saturation) let me offer an additional tweak ... a variant (5b) with bordered label boxes as well. They are both presented together so as to make an easy direct comparison. Again ... its good to have the feedback whether pro or con. Its all good. :)

PS: Groupthink is a real thing. Groupthink sucks! So, if there are any dissenters lurking about, then please speak up. The negative feedback ... the 'bad' ... is as valuable and helpful as the 'good' (likely even more so ...)

Image

Feel free to Compare / Critique the following. Thank you ...

Rendering 5. No border around text boxes

Image

Rendering 5b. Border included around text boxes

Image
Attachments
groupthink.jpg
Groupthink ... Dissenters wanted
groupthink.jpg (59.37 KiB) Viewed 406 times
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA - no border - full saturation  2019-08-12  Med-Res  COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 5. No borders around text label boxes
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA - no border - full saturation 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (212.09 KiB) Viewed 406 times
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA - with border - full saturation - Rendering 5b   2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 5b. Borders included around text label boxes
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA - with border - full saturation - Rendering 5b 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (216.59 KiB) Viewed 406 times
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

User avatar
inautilus
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, CANADA

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:46 pm

@Bob - Back to Borders' :D
rprosperi wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:23 am
inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 am
For 'Bob without Borders.' :D

EDIT addition:
Rendering 4. Menu keys with labels without any border around the black shading. And light grey ALPHA lettering.
It's hard to compare them exactly as this last one is larger, but for my (aging) eyes, I can see the versions with borders much more clearly than the black relief w/o borders, due to the low contrast (black on dark brown).
Well Bob, your 'aging eyes' may actually be an asset. The fact is ... that the intended users of this scientific professional tool (the ones that this device has been designed for ...) do not always perform their work in ideal environments or situations. There are often challenges ... not ideal lighting conditions for one. So, it would in fact be very helpful if someone on this end ... like yourself (aging eyes) ... could feed back with a more realistic and credible performance assessment ... as it relates to colours used, clarity/legibility, visual organization, etc, etc.

Please see Rendering 5b and 5c below. 5b has the faceplate in the original colour. 5c, however, has been tweaked to be a bit darker ... in an effort to better dial in on that ideal contrast for optimal clarity, legibility, etc.


Please feed back with your assessment. Thank you in advance.

Image

Image
Attachments
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA - with border - full saturation - Rendering 5b   2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 5b. Original faceplate colour
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA - with border - full saturation - Rendering 5b 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (216.59 KiB) Viewed 369 times
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA - with border - full saturation - FP 2 - Rendering 5c   2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 5c. Darkened faceplate colour
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA - with border - full saturation - FP 2 - Rendering 5c 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (217.54 KiB) Viewed 369 times
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:53 pm

Status report and photo updates, and a document that I started, to document the differences to the main project. Work in progress of course.


Most importantly, let me clarify:
LAYOUT 1 is the preferred layout, and the layout for the proposed template.
LAYOUT 2 is the layout meant for DM42 without template, with the additional HOME pages for help without blue labels.
I intend to keep both templates maintained.


Have a look at the document. http://cocoon-creations.com/download/20 ... rences.pdf. I intend to expand this document further. There are unfortunately more things I have not documented as yet.

The picture at the bottom this time includes the ALPHA layout, where the commands have been removed and put in a ALPHA menu.

Status report, using the same number system as previously. As usual, all previous DONE's disappeared, and many old outstanding points disappeared:

I am most excited about my two pet topics, i.e. SIGFIG mode and the double tap [<-] which does a DROP. You got to feel that on the real calculator.

--


204. Check which functions are missing on the main project’s menus and decide if certain functions are to be added to menus. Big job - no time for that now.

206. DONE. Add SIGFIG to MODE. Install toggle for SIGFIX. Fix cancels SIGFIX.

206a. DONE. SigFig. Jaco
Add SigFig mode as per WP31S, 34S, 34C. This is automatic rounding, which in SIGFIG 3 mode, will display 3.14159 as 3.142 and will display 299792458 as 299 800 000 or 299.8 x10ˆ6 in ENG mode.

Example: SIGFIG 4
           3.141 6        3.1416
          31.416         0.314 16
         314.16          0.031 416
       3 141.6           0.003 141 6
      31 416             0.000 314 16
     314 160             3.141 6 e -5
   3 141 600             3.141 6 e -6
  31 416 000
...
 3 141 600 000 000 000
           3.1416 e 16
           3.1416 e 17


207. DONE. Fix eRPN stack issue. No fault found.

209. WAIT. Added temporary ALPHA menu in alpha input. Wait for 43S project to fix AlphaMyMenu to fix this..

210. WAIT. Added myAlpha item in HOME menu. This is a placeholder for the MyMenu which is not yet done by main project 43S.

211. WAIT. Hardcode MyMenu on E+ as a default USER key. Wait until main project adds MyMenu.

217. Fix timer issue - DROP on third press.

218. Fix 43S to 43C name in DM42 image

219. DONE. Fixed keyboard control of enulator - ONLY LEFT SHIFT to operate calculator shift.

220. DONE. Check if all “/“ were replaced in emulator.

221. DONE. Returned the # in layout 1 to the top line, and dropped BASE in Layout 1. Fixed both layouts to have [f][OFF] instead of [g][OFF].

222. next item

——
Wish list:

307. WAIT. CUST2. Dani. Dani to advise what is needed.
Creation of CUST1 & CUST 2menu. Variable content. Dani to explain how this is different from MyMenu.
The MyMenu and ASN functionality seems to be exactly what Dani wants. The problem is there is only on MyMenu. He needs to ask Walter to specify more.

308. DONE. METRIC/UNIT Mode. Jaco
Add METRIC mode for ENG mode, to display metric unit prefixes, i.e. display k instead of 10ˆ3, M instead of 10ˆ6, G instead of 10ˆ9, for example an X register of 170000 should display in ENG as 170 x 10ˆ3, but if this is activated, must display 170 k. Sigfig from 10^-15 to 10^12 translates to f, p, n, u, m, k, M, G, T..

311. WAIT. Proposed to Inautilus.
See if it is possible to draw lines between the actual FN buttons to the screen labels to guide the eyes. The purpose is to see if it will help match the keys to the narrower soft buttons on screen.

315. Make R.BR remember where you left off, I.e. which regs number.

316. Change TAM input screen to have a better menu, somehow. Not clear in how.

317. Make the calc default entry of 100 ENTER as real.
next item

318. DONE. Time out multiple shifts.

319. Remove f/g markers when timed out.

320. DONE. Implement DROP upon double [<-] within 0.5 sec time limit.

321. Add setting to disable timeouts.

322. Config USER default to have MyMenu on Sigma+

323. next item

—-
Reminders for the actual calc layout:

502. Yellow and blue dots above shift button

503. Increase contrast in text letters on the future template

504. Maybe use dotted underlines for menus (for yellow and blue underline) on the future template

505. Mark the “Y” and “N”bright white to help finding the yes/no answer to some confirmations, on the future template

506. Shading (28S style) instead of underlining of menus.

507. next item


Image


Edit: Fixed items 322/323.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

rprosperi
Posts: 483
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:48 pm
Location: New York

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:07 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:46 pm
Well Bob, your 'aging eyes' may actually be an asset. The fact is ... that the intended users of this scientific professional tool (the ones that this device has been designed for ...) do not always perform their work in ideal environments or situations. There are often challenges ... not ideal lighting conditions for one. So, it would in fact be very helpful if someone on this end ... like yourself (aging eyes) ... could feed back with a more realistic and credible performance assessment ... as it relates to colours used, clarity/legibility, visual organization, etc, etc.

Please see Rendering 5b and 5c below. 5b has the faceplate in the original colour. 5c, however, has been tweaked to be a bit darker ... in an effort to better dial in on that ideal contrast for optimal clarity, legibility, etc.


Please feed back with your assessment. Thank you in advance.
First, thanks to Jaymos for clarifying these are indeed mock-ups for the real calculator, not emulator.

Second - I will never admit to having a meeting like the one depicted in the cartoon. No admission. Nope.

Third - thanks for continuing to refine and explore. Even though subtle, these changes do help to see what works and what doesn't.

Although I would have expected 5c would be better from the description, for my eyes 5b feels easier to read. Maybe the slightly lower contrast helps, I'm not sure why.

That said, may I recommend that you try to post the images at close to actual size? These large renderings are beautiful, rich in color and precise detail, but when shrunk (not actually, but visually) to actual 43S size I fear they will look different, and may not be as clear. Of course, we can each save the images to our PCs and shrink them, but each person will do it somewhat differently, so we'd actually all be looking at (slightly) different images, defeating the purpose of seeking comments against a single image or set of images.

I'm not sure my continuing to ask for more is really helping the process...
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:09 pm

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 am
Rendering 5: Same as Rendering 4. however, while the yellow and blue hues are the same, their saturation (colour intensity) has been adjusted up to have more contrast, clarity, and impact.
I looked at all the renditions, and will restrict my comments on the two most successful ones, i.e.

R5
R5c

R5c: Firstly, I really like the box shape and effect, but in the end, it adds to clutter and over-information, where it is not that important to know which are menu and which not. I don’t want to go as far as saying take away the menu indications, I mean it must be a lot subtler. So, I discard R5c too.

R5: So I choose R5 and printed it on 100% calculator size.

I really like the impact of the design. Again I am ignoring the white key lettering as it does not matter.

Just to clarify: You are using the Layout2. Do you specifically want Layout 2, because layout 2 is meant for label-less operation. Layout1 is the one I intend to be the label?

Comments:

1. The stroke width on the lettering is too thin. The result is that when you print it on scale, not only the font size shrink, but also the actual stroke width.

2. I like the Lastx x, |x| and e and alpha font. Also do the other x and y’s, top line yellow.
Critically, the font is not solid enough though. Look art the images at the bottom. Can you stretch those fonts in Autocad?
48sx_a.png
48sx_a.png (18.18 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP48SX

3. The raised superscripts are too small. On this small scale legibility is EVERYTHING. I would have the superscripts the same size as the main font.
32SII_b.png
32SII_b.png (34.11 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP32SII

4. x^2: Both x and 2 are too small. font++. Compare the size with pi. or with 10^x. Look at the legibility of row 3.

5. y^x: The x is too small and is not legible on the print. See (4).

6. 10^x: x too small. Compress the space between 1 and 0.

7. The lower case letters always must be a larger font than the capital letters, so that the visual impact is the same. Compare d.ms, .d, h.ms with LBL. font++ on the lower case letters.

8. Every single letter must be sized to have the equivalent impact.

9. COMPLEX |x| % D% pi R^ … RTN. Size is fine Impact good. Fonts good.

10. Compact the spacing between -> and R, and -> and P. Note thaqt your arrows are slightly high. Centre,

11. DROP’s arrow seems smaller than the other. Please check the visually the arrows are perfectly shaped the same way unless there is a reason to.

12. ALPHA box by accident I suppose.

13. ALPHA DROP size and font ok.

14. Lastx. x font size larger.

15. CPX MODE EXP DISP FIN CLR arrow all ok.

16. REGS EQN … SUMS ok

17. FLAG.V … PROB ok.

18. Alpha.FN. Alpha needs a much thicker stroke. It disappears. Size up. See discussion below.

19. ASN … TEST ok

20. HOME … PARTS.

21. : and , can be sized up, and shifted to the right to be balanced.

22. I did mention before today about the shading. I think it must be lighter, not darker.

This depends on the contrast of the medium of the final template we make. If the medium allows enough contrast, you can do like HP, and have a mid-dark bezel, bright contrasty blue/orange paint on it, and pitch dark shadow, see below. That can work.
32SII_b.png
32SII_b.png (34.11 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP32SII

My experience with affordable vinyl calculator stickers was that you simply cannot get the contrast as high as HP can with their paint, so blackening the background is a good way to increase contrast.

Where HP had lesser quality paint, they also raised the tone of the shadow boxes:
28s_a.png
28s_a.png (17.85 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP28S


23. From line 4 down, I think you can shrink the spacing consistently between yellow and blue labels, so that you could possibly up the font size marginally. There is much space above the letters, and we need all the horisontal space we can get to be more legible.


Let's have a look at how HP solved the legibility problem: Custom font which have serif type math font, which has no disappearing sections of font, see:

It is clear that HP improved their skill from the 34C to the 32SII to the 48SX. Look at the strokes in the math fonts. Definitely more legible than the disappearing edges of the the x we have. Can't load the 34C snippet on - too big, gosh. Google it.

32SII_b.png
32SII_b.png (34.11 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP32SII
48sx_a.png
48sx_a.png (18.18 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP48SX
28s_a.png
28s_a.png (17.85 KiB) Viewed 328 times
HP28S
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:58 am

DM42 firmware images 006

Those with DM42's,

I recommend trying out:

1. double tap backspace/CLX, executes a DROP
2. try the menus according to the PDF document sent
3. try the new UNITS display mode
4. try the new SIGFIG display mode
5. try generally how the HOME menu works
6. do a series of typical calculations that you normally would do

Please feed back your feeling of how it works in your hands in the DM42 body. Are we on the right track? Is the muscle memory pleased? Are we barking up the right tree? ;-)

Layout2, for use without a template:
http://cocoon-creations.com/download/43C_L2_06.pgm.zip

Layout 1, if you print, cut and fit a label for the DM42:
http://cocoon-creations.com/download/43C_L1_06.pgm.zip
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
inautilus
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 pm
Location: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, CANADA

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:31 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:09 pm
inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 am
Rendering 5: Same as Rendering 4. however, while the yellow and blue hues are the same, their saturation (colour intensity) has been adjusted up to have more contrast, clarity, and impact.
...
Just to clarify: You are using the Layout2. Do you specifically want Layout 2, because layout 2 is meant for label-less operation. Layout1 is the one I intend to be the label?
Thank you for your recent feedback posts. I'll be better able to properly respond in detail later today. For now though ... do you have a vernier caliper? Its been my experience that what is spec'd for production is one thing... but what actually comes off the line may be another; they do not necessarily agree. So. since I do not have a DM42 physical device to reference, I must find another reliable way to definitively lock down the DM42's various dimensions. I'm sure you will appreciate the necessity of accurate information.

(for one, I need confirmation on overlay dims - 70.5 mm x 89.5mm)

Also on accuracy ... would it be possible to forward the most recent (as of this morning...) version of Layout1. Thank you

PS: On Alpha letters colour: 'Grey is Good ... and Red is Dead'
(whoa ... now that sounded like Napoleon from Animal Farm ... :D )
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:21 am

inautilus wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:31 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:09 pm
inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 am
Rendering 5: Same as Rendering 4. however, while the yellow and blue hues are the same, their saturation (colour intensity) has been adjusted up to have more contrast, clarity, and impact.
...
Just to clarify: You are using the Layout2. Do you specifically want Layout 2, because layout 2 is meant for label-less operation. Layout1 is the one I intend to be the label?
Thank you for your recent feedback posts. I'll be better able to properly respond in detail later today. For now though ... do you have a vernier caliper? Its been my experience that what is spec'd for production is one thing... but what actually comes off the line may be another; they do not necessarily agree. So. since I do not have a DM42 physical device to reference, I must find another reliable way to definitively lock down the DM42's various dimensions. I'm sure you will appreciate the necessity of accurate information.

(for one, I need confirmation on overlay dims - 70.5 mm x 89.5mm)

Also on accuracy ... would it be possible to forward the most recent (as of this morning...) version of Layout1. Thank you

PS: On Alpha letters colour: 'Grey is Good ... and Red is Dead'
(whoa ... now that sounded like Napoleon from Animal Farm ... :D )

I do have a vernier caliper. I can make any measurements needed.

I will send a photo of Layout 1 within an hour or two.

I will also send outline measurements soon.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

User avatar
Jaymos
Posts: 323
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:03 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:22 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:21 am
inautilus wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:31 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:09 pm


...
Just to clarify: You are using the Layout2. Do you specifically want Layout 2, because layout 2 is meant for label-less operation. Layout1 is the one I intend to be the label?
Thank you for your recent feedback posts. I'll be better able to properly respond in detail later today. For now though ... do you have a vernier caliper? Its been my experience that what is spec'd for production is one thing... but what actually comes off the line may be another; they do not necessarily agree. So. since I do not have a DM42 physical device to reference, I must find another reliable way to definitively lock down the DM42's various dimensions. I'm sure you will appreciate the necessity of accurate information.

(for one, I need confirmation on overlay dims - 70.5 mm x 89.5mm)

Also on accuracy ... would it be possible to forward the most recent (as of this morning...) version of Layout1. Thank you

PS: On Alpha letters colour: 'Grey is Good ... and Red is Dead'
(whoa ... now that sounded like Napoleon from Animal Farm ... :D )

I do have a vernier caliper. I can make any measurements needed.

I will send a photo of Layout 1 within an hour or two.

I will also send outline measurements soon.

The latest Layout1 of this morning, corresponding to firmware release 006, in an image on its own:
http://cocoon-creations.com/download/IMG_0422.JPG

DM42 dimensions:
I used my calliper vernier, but the results are not 100% because it is difficult to measure with the buttons in the way. I do not want to take apart the keyboard now, but that is the obvious thing someone must do to get 100% results.

(edited to add rev1 dimension)
http://cocoon-creations.com/download/20 ... sions1.pdf

I also have some interesting links on the whole keyboard issue. Just for background, here my pdf I made on historical Keypads on HP’s:
http://cocoon-creations.com/download/20 ... ARISON.pdf

Also some documents on the web regarding the same: http://pahhc.org item 4
http://pahhc.org/2010/Articles/HHC2000% ... eypads.pdf
http://pahhc.org/2010/Articles/HHC2000% ... Slides.pdf

Then some historical information about the Historical RPN and eRPN on HP specifically relating to the eRPN option I implemented on the WP43C.
http://h20331.www2.hp.com/hpsub/downloa ... %20V5b.pdf
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

Post Reply