43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

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Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:10 am

Yup, that seems to be working again. I mean, with the menus in the numeric keypad, there will be certainly more changes. But lines two and three have almost the same clarity as in layout 1.

I'm a fan of having COMPEX on [f][ENTER], but on the long line ALPHA isn't so great in layout 1 either. This is just a matter of taste. But probably it's easier for those who already buy a DM42 now to convert it to a WP43C later with the overlay, when COMPEX and APLHA still behave like in the 42S. Actually quite nice.
DM42 SN:00032

Dani R.
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Dani R. » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:30 pm

It's become extremely quiet here. I hope very much that I did not write anything wrong.

Layout 1 and Layout 2, as long as there are two layouts: I think the lines 2 and 3 and column 1 are very good, the variants with '#' on [g][1/x]. And of course I also find line 4 very successful, in both variants.

Layout 2: In the numeric keypad and in the operators, the [f] assignments are actually given automatically, since here the original shift labels make the default. The [g] assignments can be selected relatively freely.

Discussion BASE/BITS; The WP43S software is in alpha state. It can be assumed that the '#' function will no longer be connected to AIM at some point. Things are solved differently than in 42S/16C. In layout 2 I could imagine that the '#' function is also provided in the BITS menu and that the BITS menu is located in the place of BASE. (Then you would probably set INTS to [g][4] and CLK to [g][6] for example. [g][3] would then be free, because we just removed the menu BASE again..)

Why do I write such a confrontation? Goal 2 of this thread seems to have been reached a long time ago. Goal 3 is "To maintain some of the legacy and familiarity of the HP42S." What effort do you want to make? Should BIN, OCT, DEC, HEX be implemented, i.e. wrappers about the functionality '#''2' etc.? (Well, I asked for LASTx myself...) A fitting analogy, which was on my tongue, was recently used here in the forum. Therefore formulated differently: The WP43 supports significantly more data types than the 42S. The functional range is larger, some functions, which treat the same subject, are partly solved differently. The more alias/wrappers you build, the more the original documentation can no longer be used. But the WP43 is not [s]only[/s] a 42S. It is another calculator with its own philosophy. Maybe you shouldn't give the future users of the WP42C the illusion that they get all the features of the 42S plus more. No, they get a WP43S disguised as DM42.

Parallel to the realignment of the menus one will probably make the comparison of the function sets WP43/42S sometime and list which of the corresponding operators should also be supported as native 42S operator with its inputs and outputs.
DM42 SN:00032

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:36 pm

I was waiting for a deep thought response like yours. And I appreciate it. I feel I have moved very fast with changes, and I wanted to slow down and reflect on what we have. So therefore I really like your response. You did nothing wrong indeed!

I used the time well to work on two non-layout issues, i.e. I completed the items I really want because they are NOT in most calculators. They are also not part of the stated goals though, but essential rewards for me personally for the effort invested. And I am adding options, not forcing it on users. Those are items 206, 206A (SIGFIG) and item 308 (Metric unit prefix).

I will provide an updated WP43C firmware image over the weekend.

About the layouts: at this point I will keep both layouts for the simple reason that I need to continue to use layout 2 on my DM42 right now without label, but I really prefer layout 1 when a template will be made.
Comparing L1 & L2:

Line 2: same
Lines 3/4: I really prefer L1
Line 5: I really prefer 7 and 8 of L2
Line 6: prefer L1
Lines 7/8: much the same in liking. I prefer [.] on L2.

Layout 1 (last one submitted the triple image) needs changes any way because # does not work if called from BASE. Changing TAM operation is beyond scope for me now. So BASE changes back to #. And BASE is in the HOME menu only not on keyboard. No big deal. I will wait for Walter - he said ge will think on the HEX OCT DEC BIN shortcuts.

Layout 1: I have not made up my mind to change the bottom right 2x2 labels the same way as L2. I prefer the symmetry as is in L1.

Layout 1: Please apply your mind and maybe find a solution to have ADV and EQN on g[7] and [8]. Swapping?

Discussion BASE/BITS: I agree. I really want visible shortcuts for the bases. I don’t need 42S compatibility. But having to remember shortcuts with a large screen available, typing H, D, failing which, typing in a number for base, is archaic. I will wait to see what Walter comes up with.

You are right. Familiarity is familiarising and not cloning. I am happy with what is achieved in familiarity in L1. L2 is a usable template for a non-label scenario. We keep it like that.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:33 pm

Been chiselling away honing the latest rendering version of Layout 2 (2019-08-12). Still A LOT of details that need fine tuning ... At this point though, however, I have three variations to offer ... in need of some consideration:

Rendering 1. Menu keys with labels that have a light border around a black relief (shading). Also has red ALPHA lettering.
Rendering 2. Menu keys with labels without any border around the black shading. Also has red ALPHA lettering.
Rendering 3. Menu keys with labels that have a light border around black shading (as in 1.) ... but this one with light grey ALPHA lettering.

A picture's worth a thousand words, right ....
So, as before, feedback is welcome. :)

Image

Image

Image
Attachments
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA 2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 3.
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (149.51 KiB) Viewed 138 times
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2  no box border 2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.jpg
Rendering 2.
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 no box border 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.jpg (78.88 KiB) Viewed 138 times
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2  2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.jpg
Rendering 1.
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.jpg (82.12 KiB) Viewed 138 times
Last edited by inautilus on Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:09 am

In order to get the preceding renderings online, I had to basically cripple the resolution. Disappointing, to say the least. The originals are crystal clear ... life-like really. The intent was to give everyone interested a very realistic sense of this thing as it comes together. There's a lot of care and attention being invested all around (much more by others than by me). And its that unyielding commitment to excellence that should be coming through as a major part of the story. As best summed up and imparted by the motto of a former engineering school ... 'Nil sin cura'.

For the renderings at hand though ... all that craft just gets thrown to the curb ... with the file size cap as it is now. Does anyone know of some kind of work-around to better transmit decent quality originals (pictures, images, renderings ... etc). Thanks in advance.
Last edited by inautilus on Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

rprosperi
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:13 am

Re:
Rendering 1. Menu keys with labels that have a light border around a black relief (shading). Also has red ALPHA lettering.
Rendering 2. Menu keys with labels without any border around the black shading. Also has red ALPHA lettering.
Rendering 3. Menu keys with labels that have a light border around black shading (as in 1.) ... but this one with light grey ALPHA lettering.

As someone posted (far) above, and IMHO your images prove, red is poor color choice on a dark background, as the contrast is very low.

Does anyone find the renderings with red easier to read than the grey sample?

Also, on these (hi-res) screens the borders look nice, but on a real 43S template, I think it would look too crowded/busy.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 am

For 'Bob without Borders.' :D

EDIT additions:
Rendering 4: Menu keys with labels without any border around the black shading. And light grey ALPHA lettering.

Image

What-ifs welcome ...

Rendering 5: Same as Rendering 4. however, while the yellow and blue hues are the same, their saturation (colour intensity) has been adjusted up to have more contrast, clarity, and impact.

See Rendering 5. below

Image
Attachments
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA - no border  2019-08-12  Med-Res COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 4.
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA - no border 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (189.98 KiB) Viewed 96 times
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2   grey ALPHA - no border - full saturation  2019-08-12  Med-Res  COMPRESSED.png
Rendering 5.
test 50 Calculator LAYOUT 2 grey ALPHA - no border - full saturation 2019-08-12 Med-Res COMPRESSED.png (212.09 KiB) Viewed 96 times
Last edited by inautilus on Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

rprosperi
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Location: New York

Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by rprosperi » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:23 am

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 am
For 'Bob without Borders.' :D

EDIT addition:
Rendering 4. Menu keys with labels without any border around the black shading. And light grey ALPHA lettering.
It's hard to compare them exactly as this last one is larger, but for my (aging) eyes, I can see the versions with borders much more clearly than the black relief w/o borders, due to the low contrast (black on dark brown).

Maybe a slightly light grey relief for Menu keys? But not too grey to avoid washout with the yellow labels.

I assume these images are for the emulator though, right?

As noted above, color matching on the physical bezel surrounding the actual keys will be a tougher problem. I fear these very nice designs will be hard to realize on the small DM42 style bezel; hopefully these borders could indeed work, it will depend on the label-making process.

Thanks for continuing to crank out these images, great food for thought for hungry minds.
--bob p

DM42: β00071 & 00282

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inautilus
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by inautilus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:25 am

Both versions shown, the layouts with non-bordered shade boxes (as with the HP-42s) ... and the layouts with bordered boxes actually both have a black box as relief/background to the yellow and blue key label text. The challenge here as I see it is to somehow very discretely differentiate the menu keys (labels) from the non menu ones. It is a balancing act between being clearly seen/read ... while at the same time not being too busy and distracting by actually confusing with clutter and by employing ill-considered colour. Its a fine tuning thing ... that can be done really well. All any of us need do is to consider the HP legacy of all of the superbly well designed ... and crafted ... machines of the past.

Regarding the emulator, and other aspects of this project, best to get coordinated direction from Jaymos. After all, he started this initiative ... he is the lead here.
Last edited by inautilus on Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
D A MacDonald
Mar Eng, Designer, CANADA
HP35, HP41C, HP28S, HP35s. PC: HP15C, Free42, WP31S, WP34S
(Operators Right in bold)
"It is not the strongest or most intelligent who will survive but those who can best manage change ..." Darwin

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S Alternative key layout --> WP43C

Post by Jaymos » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:28 am

inautilus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:25 am
Both versions shown, the layouts with non-bordered shade boxes (as with the HP-42s) ... and the layouts with bordered boxes actually both have a black box as relief/background to the yellow and blue key label text. The challenge here as I see it is to somehow very discretely differentiate the menu keys (labels) from the non menu ones. It is a balancing act between being clearly seen/read ... while at the same time not being too busy and distracting by actually confusing with clutter and by employing ill-considered colour. Its a fine tuning thing ... that can be done really well. All any of us need do is to consider the HP legacy of all of the superbly well designed ... and crafted ... machines of the past.

Regarding the emulator, and other aspects of this project, best to get coordinated direction from Jamos. After all, he started this initiative ... he is the lead here.
The improvement is vast !! Wow !!

1. In terms of larger files, the procedure is to upload an image to a web site and link to it on these posts using the "image" icon in the toolbar above. If you have no access to a web site, I have a web service and can give you a free login, so that you can ftp the images to the web server and link to it. If that is a problem, you can email to me, and I will upload it.

2. In terms of red text, I know you like it, but I really don't. I gave it a chance and made one, but I rejected it. Of course, making them yourself, you can surely make one for yourself. I would say try increase the stroke size of the red lettering, i.e. not increase font size but use a font with thicker strokes.

3. I will critically comment in more detail later, but for now, in my comment on no 5 is STUNNING !!

4. I can see the black boxes and I think the shade should be a little lighter, rather than darker. Like I did in the emulator. Also, I think on the real faceplate there is no reason not to use darkest black 00 00 00 for the background to achieve higher contrast on the lettering. The preferred golds are often difficult to see on the print, so black helps. That then implies the box shading must be a little lighter as it cannot go darker.

5. I can see the font changes, spacing improvements, and in summary it has a good impact.

6. Purpose: The purpose for this layout can only be for a template to be made, and not for a version of the emulator, as the emulator draws all glyphs independently using GTK3.

More later.

Compliments on a superb effort.
Till later ;-)
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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