Troubled waters

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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Guenter
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by Guenter » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:04 pm

KimWood wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:15 am
Maybe it's time to step back for a minute and let SwissMicros respond. Note that this is a two person company that is pushing out hardware and software updates at a furious rate. Let's not assume the worst just yet. My dealings with SwissMicros have proven them to be nothing less than trustworthy, generous and honourable. Maybe we should wait a little for their considered response."

Just my two cents worth based on a lifetime's experience.

Regards,

Kim
It really doesn't matter how big or small SwissMicros is. They were big enough to take advantage of a freely available software, developed by an even smaller "company" (Thomas Okken). And as their response to Barry Mead indicates, they don't have the intention at all to follow the GPL. They had to provide the source code immediately when distributing the beta units, not some indefinite time later, or incomplete and unusable.

I've been a strong supporter of SwissMicros, not least by presenting the DM42 at the HHC2016. Now I feel to be cheated.

Günter, very disappointed
DM42 SN:00004 and SN:00184

pauli
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by pauli » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:12 am

Walter wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:29 pm
AFAIK (I'm no SW person) we will handle the 43S as far as possible like we handled the WP 34S. I.e. our code would be as public as the WP 34S code is. I'm not aware of any code from anybody else needed for the 43S yet.
We'll need hardware support code and this would likely have come from DM. I doubt we'd be able to ship their source. Writing such support from scratch would be possible if we have sufficient details about the hardware. I doubt it would be all that difficult or time consuming for an embedded software person, it would require purchasing the appropriate hardware tools.

The there is also the issue of the manual, which for the 34S was never as source under the GPL and the shipped binary version is now quite dated....

Pauli

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ijabbott
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by ijabbott » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:59 am

pauli wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:12 am
Walter wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:29 pm
AFAIK (I'm no SW person) we will handle the 43S as far as possible like we handled the WP 34S. I.e. our code would be as public as the WP 34S code is. I'm not aware of any code from anybody else needed for the 43S yet.
We'll need hardware support code and this would likely have come from DM. I doubt we'd be able to ship their source. Writing such support from scratch would be possible if we have sufficient details about the hardware. I doubt it would be all that difficult or time consuming for an embedded software person, it would require purchasing the appropriate hardware tools.
Quite a lot of the DM42's hardware support code (apart from the display and keyboard) appears to come from STM32CubeL4 which has a BSD-style licence and is all on GitHub!

keithdalby
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by keithdalby » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:05 pm

Slapping this reply here, seems apropos.
Hi Barry,

Thanks for letting me know, since I am not reading on that forum I wasn't aware this escalated that much so quickly.
Godwin pointed me less than 24 hours ago to this thread and we discussed it.
We never intended to play unfair and we thought we did the right move already with the part we released.
There were no excuses from our side, except for the delays.
We're only a two person company, or actually even less than that since I still have a regular job next to this.

I wish Thomas would have contacted to me directly, telling us what he thinks is missing.
Actually I'm quite surprised of his move accusing us in public in such a manner.
Now it looks like we needed to be forced before releasing the full sources and nothing can change that impression anymore.

Unfortunately David is on holidays this weekend, so things have to wait a little more.

This is a sad story which could have been avoided by simple talks.

Best regards,
Michael
Here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10 ... l#pid93971

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H2X
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by H2X » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:50 pm

Hopefully this issue can now be tucked in and put to sleep.

I also hope that the resolution is no more to Swiss Micros disadvantage than necessary, i.e. that they don't disclose anything more than they are required to by GPL - or than they otherwise want to.

For my personal education, I'd like to know whether the mentioned shell has to be released. That sounds a bit to me like if one were to develop an operating system which is capable of executing one GPL program, you'd be forced to GPL that operating system as well...
DM42 SN:00040
Be enter not or (Hamlet Yoda not)

Thomas Okken
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by Thomas Okken » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:59 pm

H2X wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:50 pm
For my personal education, I'd like to know whether the mentioned shell has to be released. That sounds a bit to me like if one were to develop an operating system which is capable of executing one GPL program, you'd be forced to GPL that operating system as well...
Read and learn:
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licens ... 0-faq.html

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ijabbott
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by ijabbott » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:31 pm

H2X wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:50 pm
Hopefully this issue can now be tucked in and put to sleep.
Or at least it will have bumped the source code release as a higher priority!
I also hope that the resolution is no more to Swiss Micros disadvantage than necessary, i.e. that they don't disclose anything more than they are required to by GPL - or than they otherwise want to.
I wouldn't want them to be financially disadvantaged either but I can't really see that releasing the full source would harm their bottom line even if they could technically release less. (It's easier to release the lot rather than argue about whether or not some tiny bit is exempt or not.) There is nothing technical that would prevent a Chinese company producing a "cheap plastic knock-off" of the DM42 running exactly the same firmware (perhaps with some hex editing to remove any reference to SwissMicros).
For my personal education, I'd like to know whether the mentioned shell has to be released. That sounds a bit to me like if one were to develop an operating system which is capable of executing one GPL program, you'd be forced to GPL that operating system as well...
In Thomas's context, I understand the "shell" is that part of the Free42 program that interfaces to the underlying system. The GPL would not apply to the operating system or its libraries if that can be considered an "independent and separate work". But it's debatable whether the DM42 has an operating system at all, rather than just being linked into one big program running on the bare metal (which would then fall under the GPL).

Your point about being forced to GPL the operating system because there is a GPL program running from it is refuted by: "However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable." In the case of DM42, the firmware release includes all the software components needed to run the GPL program, so I interpret that sentence as meaning that it all falls under the GPL.

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H2X
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by H2X » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:55 pm

ijabbott wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:31 pm
In Thomas's context, I understand the "shell" is that part of the Free42 program that interfaces to the underlying system.
In which case the "shell" modifications by SM amounts to the ways that the UI of the DM42 is different from Free42? Such as the alpha mode and a few key mappings and menus? Surely this cannot have been the cause of all this commotion?

Noticing that Micheal has already responded, I have every confidence that this matter will go away soon...
DM42 SN:00040
Be enter not or (Hamlet Yoda not)

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Walter
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by Walter » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:47 am

H2X wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:55 pm
Noticing that Micheal has already responded, I have every confidence that this matter will go away soon...
Ummh, where? I can't find it on this forum. Maybe my eyesight though ... :?
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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H2X
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Re: Troubled waters

Post by H2X » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:22 am

Walter wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:47 am
H2X wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:55 pm
Noticing that Micheal has already responded, I have every confidence that this matter will go away soon...
Ummh, where? I can't find it on this forum. Maybe my eyesight though ... :?
http://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-10 ... l#pid93971
DM42 SN:00040
Be enter not or (Hamlet Yoda not)

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