43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:54 am

RAPo wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:34 am
If there is another voting round on the layout, your proposal would certainly get my vote.
To have, sin, cos directly available and operators on the right hand is very important.
I suggested the cycling shift key behavior, so I won't vote on that since that makes sense to me anyway, but I do like having the shift key in the bottom left corner like it is on the DM42 and HP48.

I also like having full rows of keys with actual mathematical functions beneath the screen.

And I also prefer unshifted trig keys.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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ijabbott
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Re: 43S News

Post by ijabbott » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:14 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:22 pm
More WP43S emulator testing: On the current emulator version,

1. Complex entry comment:
[RESET] 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER] does work and produces 5+i*1
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] does not work. I would have expected the [CC] to take the X register while in entry mode. This would be convenient.
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [ENTER] [g] [DROP] [CC] does work and produces 5+i*1
You missed 5 [ENTER] 1 [EXIT] [CC]. Personally, I find that a little awkward (I don't like the overloading of the [CC] key functionality), but less awkward (and less wasteful) than dropping the duplicated imaginary part.

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:53 am

ijabbott wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:14 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:22 pm
More WP43S emulator testing: On the current emulator version,

1. Complex entry comment:
[RESET] 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER] does work and produces 5+i*1
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] does not work. I would have expected the [CC] to take the X register while in entry mode. This would be convenient.
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [ENTER] [g] [DROP] [CC] does work and produces 5+i*1
You missed 5 [ENTER] 1 [EXIT] [CC]. Personally, I find that a little awkward (I don't like the overloading of the [CC] key functionality), but less awkward (and less wasteful) than dropping the duplicated imaginary part.
You are right - I forgot about the [EXIT].

Still, the special case (during entry mode) of 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] would be as intuitive and as neat as 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER].
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:53 am
ijabbott wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:14 am
Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:22 pm
More WP43S emulator testing: On the current emulator version,

1. Complex entry comment:
[RESET] 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER] does work and produces 5+i*1
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] does not work. I would have expected the [CC] to take the X register while in entry mode. This would be convenient.
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [ENTER] [g] [DROP] [CC] does work and produces 5+i*1
You missed 5 [ENTER] 1 [EXIT] [CC]. Personally, I find that a little awkward (I don't like the overloading of the [CC] key functionality), but less awkward (and less wasteful) than dropping the duplicated imaginary part.
You are right - I forgot about the [EXIT].

Still, the special case (during entry mode) of 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] would be as intuitive and as neat as 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER].
@Jaco, any thoughts on how to do this on your alternative, DM42 compatible layout?

To me, this is number entry, so it should be close to (or on) the [ENTER] key. Could [CC] be the first shifted (f) mode of the [ENTER] key?

In other words, do we need FILL?

Complex entries might then look like this:

(real part) [SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [ENTER]
[SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [ENTER]

or even:

(real part) [SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [EXIT]
[SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [EXIT]

for those so inclined.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:31 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:22 pm
More WP43S emulator testing: On the current emulator version,

1. Complex entry comment:
[RESET] 5 [CC] 1 [ENTER] does work and produces 5+i*1
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [CC] does not work. I would have expected the [CC] to take the X register while in entry mode. This would be convenient.
[RESET] 5 [ENTER] 1 [ENTER] [g] [DROP] [CC] does work and produces 5+i*1

2. OM, v0.12, p118: "DEG, RAD, GRAD, MULπ, and D.MS, all stored in MODE". D.MS is not settable in MODE.

3. d.ms functionality:
[RESET] 5.2 [f] [d.ms] works and produces 5'20 and the angle mode indicates ADM as L" which is expected.
Accidentally pressing [f] [.d] converts to 5.333333, but the ADM stays in L" which should show decimal degrees to correspond with 5.333.

4. About [CC]
[CC] is only really needed when you already have selected the CPX menu to access the other complex functions. The [CC] key could easily sit in the function menu keys 1-6 as a primary. When moved to the a menu, the cryptic [CC] could be replaced with [COMPLEX] in the menu, as is used on the HP42S and DM42. I tried to add [CC] to a menu item (in the code), but it does not work as it is a special key case.

The advantage if you would get rid of the [CC] from the primary keys, is that you could use this key for TRI, which will release a primary key space in the math group for something like Xˆ2 or Xth.root.ofY. Personally I would like Xˆ2 on a primary.
5. [CC] error discovered. Reproducible as follows:

[RESET]
[5] [ENTER] 1 [EXIT] produces Y=5 and X=1.
Now, [CC] produces 5 + i*1 correctly.
Now, [CC] produces Y=1 and X=5 which has the order in reverse.
Now, [CC] produces 1 + I*5 which is not the same as we started with.

[RESET]
[5] [CC] 1 [EXIT] produces X = 5 + i*1 correctly.
Now, [CC] produces X=5 and Y=1 which has the order in reverse again.
Now, [CC] produces 1 + I*5 which is not the same as we started with.


Regards
Jaco
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:08 pm

@Jaco: Thanks for finding point 5. Actually, this error happens in RECT only. Will be corrected (point 2 as well)
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:51 pm

H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm
@Jaco, any thoughts on how to do this on your alternative, DM42 compatible layout?

To me, this is number entry, so it should be close to (or on) the [ENTER] key. Could [CC] be the first shifted (f) mode of the [ENTER] key?

In other words, do we need FILL?
Your point that CC belongs at ENTER is logical and made me think of re-arranging further.
  • CC is an entry method and therefore I placed it as [f] [ENTER]. I changed it to the HP42 text "COMPLEX".
  • This meant I had space to move RTN to be below XEQ, which is good.
  • Yes, I need FILL. I do use [0] [f] [FILL] often as it saves keystrokes to clear the stack (it does not take away the menu that I would have, which CLR would do). I shifted FILL to [g] [7].
  • TRI was moved to a more logical position at [g] [SIN] (I still want to keep the TRI menu despite the primary SIN COS TAN keys, as it would be a good home for future add-on trig functions).
  • I dropped the angle and magnitude functions as they are on the CPX menu. I will later bring them back to [f] [9] and [g] [9] as these functions are test functions.
  • With the angle function gone, I could swap and put PI where it is on the HP42S, on [f] [Rolldn], to clear the top row for direct math functions.
  • I cleared the top math row and moved EXP down one and further also moved CNST down to where RTN was.
  • This opened up space for Xˆ2 and YˆX functions to one on [f] shift.
  • I swapped the display/formatting/number-base type functions #, d.ms, .d & h.ms from [f] to [g] shifts to make the math functions easier accessible with a single [f] shift.
  • I changed the Enter EXponent key from EE to EEX as I like it more.
So, in summary, I re-arranged my layout to be even more like the HP42S and I exchanged the angle and magnitude functions for Xˆ2 and YˆX.

See my informal layout Image
H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm
(real part) [SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [ENTER]
Re [f] [ENTER] Im [ENTER] results in Re + j * Im in both X and Y registers.
H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm
[SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [ENTER]
[f] [ENTER] does not work this way. CC converts the lower two stack elements to Y + j * X
H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm
(real part) [SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [EXIT]
Re [f] [ENTER] Im [EXIT] results in Re + j * Im in X register.
H2X wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 pm
[SHIFT] [ENTER] (imaginary part) [EXIT]
[f] [ENTER] does not work this way. CC converts the lower two stack elements to Y + j * X
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:39 am

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:51 pm
Your point that CC belongs at ENTER is logical and made me think of re-arranging further.
@Jaco, thanks for doing the work! :-)

I like where you're going with this. There will always be some particular things to just remember, but my mind perceives structure and logic which help finding what I am looking for quickly (it is having a hard time with the WP34S). Finding things where one might be used to on landmark calculators in general, and the DM42 in particular, is obviously a boon.

I also like that you found a way to put COMPLEX on the ENTER key, which supports the notion of it being a number entry thing.

However, was the CC key on the original 43S layout inteded to work like COMPLEX on the DM42?
Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:51 pm
Re [f] [ENTER] Im [ENTER] results in Re + j * Im in both X and Y registers.

Re [f] [ENTER] Im [EXIT] results in Re + j * Im in X register.
Apparently not - so what should be the result on the stack / screen after pressing

Re [f] [ENTER]

only?

PS: I count the WP34S as a landmark calculator in several respects, including the effort, but excluding the keyboard. Sorry, Walter, but there it is... :-) I know the reason why, though, and given the limitation it is not entirely unimpressive after all.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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H2X
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Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:01 am

@Jaco, what do you think about swapping FIN and SHOW?

To me, SHOW seems to have more in common with [EEX] and nothing special in common with [7], and FIN doesn't seem to have any particular affinity with either.

SHOW would sit perhaps even more nicely on [.] for more than one reason, but then the the side effect of moving FIN closer to STAT would be lost, and the search still on for a candidate for the (f) shifted option on [EEX]... :-)
Last edited by H2X on Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:53 am

H2X wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:01 am
@Jaco, what do you think about swapping FIN and SHOW?

SHOW seems to have more in common with [EEX] and nothing special in common with [7], and FIN doesn't seem to have any particular affinity with either.

SHOW would sit perhaps even more nicely on [.], but then the the side effect of moving FIN closer to STAT would be lost, and the search still on for a candidate for the (f) shifted option on [EEX]... :-)
I don’t really want to bring the lesser used menus higher up, so [f][.] can stay as is.

I am still thinking on what to change next, but I’m considering to bring the math higher up, ie. swap [R<] and [>P] from 5 to 8. And change 9 to have [|x|] and [angle].

Also, ASN & SAVE & VIEW need not be up there. Was thinking to make the space above STO & RCL more calculation related, ie. possibly EXP FIN % d%. This would bring RCL in line with 42S.

The space above CHS & EEX could then become ASN SAVE SHOW DISP.
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

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