43S News

General discussion about calculators, Swiss Micros or otherwise
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TwoWeims
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Re: 43S News

Post by TwoWeims » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:07 pm

Can someone please tell me the penalty for owning non ISO 80000-2 compliant calculators? :o
I have several and I want to do the right thing. Can I get amnesty if I voluntarily turn them in?
I had no idea... please go easy on me... I have a family to support!
DM24 SN: 3682
HP-15C and HP-16C (Bought originally by me in the early 80's)
HP-48G
MK-52

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H2X
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Location: Norway

Re: 43S News

Post by H2X » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:30 pm

TwoWeims wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:07 pm
Can someone please tell me the penalty for owning non ISO 80000-2 compliant calculators? :o
I have several and I want to do the right thing. Can I get amnesty if I voluntarily turn them in?
I had no idea... please go easy on me... I have a family to support!
You can give them to me. I won't press any charges. :D
DM42 SN:00040 | Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible - Frank Zappa

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Jaymos
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:42 pm

Final.
toml_12953 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:13 am

P.S. Who the hell actually uses the word "obelus" when they talk about a division symbol?

No native English speakers I've ever heard!
It figures as I'm no native English speaker ... I could have referred to the "division slash" or the "division sign", or as in Walter's comment, type the actual letter / or ÷.

I did love H2X's reference to Asterus and Obelus!
Walter wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:24 am
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:05 am
I fiddled further and the total changes I made up to now are listed and visible on the side by side emulator pics below:

1. Changed "/" with obelus. (HP42S style).
2. Increased the font size of the 4 operators on the emulator.
3. Removed the top key "ˆ" labels. (DM42 style).
4. Change lg to log. (HP42S style).
5. Changed CC to CPX. (WP34S style).
6. Changed +/- to CHS. (HP28C style).
7. Changed P/R to PRGM. (HP42S style).
8. Swapped operators left/right, keeping the sequence. (HP42S style).
9. Changed to eRPN. (HP28C style).
10. Shifted the alpha letters and greek letters around due to the left right swap.

For now I decided not to change all the second row keys to match the DM42 hardware keys.
Thanks for your kind words. Some comments:

1. / (or maybe even : ). Cf. ISO 80000-2: "The symbol ÷ should not be used." :o
2. Cosmetics. 8-)
3. We could call "^" HP27S style FWIW. ;)
4. True, but pursuing an error: LOG is the general logarithm, lg is the decadic. Cf. ISO 80000-2: "log x shall not be used in place of ln x, lg x ..." :shock:
5. Did you notice there's another CPX present already? :o
6. +/- (Pioneer style). 8-)
7. P/R (Voyager style). 8-)
8. See many earlier posts. ;)
9. We stick to HP's traditional RPN. 8-)
10. You should shift some shifted labels as well.

Layouting is more fun than you might expect.
I forgot 2 points:

11. Changed U-> to CONV (HP42S Style)
12. Changed L-> to DRG

For years I knew of the WP34S project, but only made one this year after I found the WP34C branch solves the complex number entry reversal. Now I have a WP34C on my work desk, home desk, in my laptop bag and even an extra WP34S floating around. The point of my story is that user participation (i.e. the compile time options, my overlays and the WP34C branch) opened up the WP34S project for me. I expect that the WP43S project would reach more people once there are more user contributions to allow more to get what they want. My attempt proves that this is feasible. For clarity, I do not at all imply that the development team should either consider these options or bear this responsibility; this should be user energy, not a burden to development.

Your comments:

1, 2, 4 & 9: I realise it may be archaic, but your pressures make the calculator "right" in terms of new (ISO) standards and I respect that, and my pressures make it useful for me by trying to keep to familiar bits. As TwoWeims implied today, its no crime not to fully comply with the ISO. The world at large is also only partially complying bit by bit in certain areas ;-)

5: Yes, I know: CPX and an underlined CPX, sufficiently differentiated in colours, causing no confusion.

10: I did move the shifted labels with the key front (operator) labels and it does seem to make sense. The more labels I shift though, the more maintenance it is for me in your future source updates.

Walter, I don't expect you to spend time on my unsupported layout, but were there traps that you saw in my layout causing you to mention (10) above?
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

burkhard
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Re: 43S News

Post by burkhard » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:25 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:05 am
I accepted that key stickers will be needed.
Hi Jaco,

Do you really need stickers on the keys themselves?
On the DM42 (and hence the WP43S), can't the device be physically opened up and keys moved around to match whatever your proposed branch provides in its firmware? Obviously, you still need a sticker to re-label shifted functionality, but that's not so bad if the keys themselves could be sticker-free.

I guess your renaming of "/" → " ÷ " and other such niceties would be missing, but at least it would let one put the operand keys in one's preferred column and order. That is the bigger deal for me...

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:38 pm

Burkhard,

There's so much information in this thread. The challenge seems to be reading and remembering:
Walter wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:36 pm
For sake of preventing creation of legends, please note: As with the Pioneers, all buttons of the DM42 are one sprue; and all are printed at once. I guess this processing will not change significantly for the 43S. So while changing shifted labels will be easy, modifying individual physical keys will be difficult.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Jaymos
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Location: Cape Town

Re: 43S News

Post by Jaymos » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:46 pm

burkhard wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:25 pm
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:05 am
I accepted that key stickers will be needed.
Hi Jaco,

Do you really need stickers on the keys themselves?
On the DM42 (and hence the WP43S), can't the device be physically opened up and keys moved around to match
I haven’t opened my DM42 yet but many on this forum confirmed it is one plastic piece with all the buttons and not possible to change them out. A quick google renders this vid, at 2:50 there is a good view of the connected buttons.


https://youtu.be/ZDxVxw6_SKU
Jaco Mostert
Elec Eng, South Africa
WP34C, HP42S, DM42 for complex math; 35S, 28C, 32Sii, WP34S, EL-506P, EL-W506, FX750P; owned FX702P & 11C; used 67 & 85. iOS: 42s (Byron), Free42, WP31S/34S, HCalc.
43S operators right. DM42 sn. 03818.

burkhard
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Re: 43S News

Post by burkhard » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:07 pm

Hi Walter & Jaco,

Thanks both for the nice (and speedy!) replies.
Yes, once I saw it in print (and confirmed in the video), that did seem familiar again.
Sigh...This "memory getting old stuff" is for the birds.

Oh well, I should have known the clever guys here would have thought of that already. :-)
Stickers it is then—they have proven OK for me on the 34S.

This single thread on the 43S is getting pretty long...

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:00 am

burkhard wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:07 pm
This single thread on the 43S is getting pretty long...
... but it's still easier to read and scan than multiple threads, isn't it?
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 am

Jaco,

You pursue your personal JM43S, we pursue a public WP43S. Different targets.
Though it's perfectly legal to branch an open source project. Since you publish your mods, I just took the freedom to comment from my point of view. You don't have to follow - nor will we follow your modifications. The following just documents different opinions, maybe triggering some thoughts. That's all a discussion is good for, isn't it?
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:42 pm
Walter wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:24 am
Jaymos wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:05 am
1. Changed "/" with obelus. (HP42S style).
2. Increased the font size of the 4 operators on the emulator.
3. Removed the top key "ˆ" labels. (DM42 style).
4. Change lg to log. (HP42S style).
5. Changed CC to CPX. (WP34S style).
6. Changed +/- to CHS. (HP28C style).
7. Changed P/R to PRGM. (HP42S style).
8. Swapped operators left/right, keeping the sequence. (HP42S style).
9. Changed to eRPN. (HP28C style).
10. Shifted the alpha letters and greek letters around due to the left right swap.
1. / (or maybe even : ). Cf. ISO 80000-2: "The symbol ÷ should not be used." :o
2. Cosmetics. 8-)
3. We could call "^" HP27S style FWIW. ;)
4. True, but pursuing an error: LOG is the general logarithm, lg is the decadic. Cf. ISO 80000-2: "log x shall not be used in place of ln x, lg x ..." :shock:
5. Did you notice there's another CPX present already? :o
6. +/- (Pioneer style). 8-)
7. P/R (Voyager style). 8-)
8. See many earlier posts. ;)
9. We stick to HP's traditional RPN. 8-)
10. You should shift some shifted labels as well.
I forgot 2 points:

11. Changed U-> to CONV (HP42S Style)
12. Changed L-> to DRG

...

Your comments:

1, 2, 4 & 9: I realise it may be archaic, but your pressures make the calculator "right" in terms of new (ISO) standards and I respect that, and my pressures make it useful for me by trying to keep to familiar bits. As TwoWeims implied today, its no crime not to fully comply with the ISO. The world at large is also only partially complying bit by bit in certain areas ;-)

5: Yes, I know: CPX and an underlined CPX, sufficiently differentiated in colours, causing no confusion.

10: I did move the shifted labels with the key front (operator) labels and it does seem to make sense. The more labels I shift though, the more maintenance it is for me in your future source updates.

Walter, I don't expect you to spend time on my unsupported layout, but were there traps that you saw in my layout causing you to mention (10) above?
Don't be afraid if a standard tells something should be done. But think deeply if it tells something shall be done. Since you are creating your very own JM43S, however, you're free as a bird and responsible yourself for the consequences as well.

Now to the individual points:
1.-4.: All said.
5.: I just think names shall be unique. YMMV
6.-9.: All said.
10.: IIRC, there was a post of Gene in this thread covering grouping of shifted labels. I can't find it right now (i.e. I'm too lazy for reading the full thread again). Please search, read, and decide.
11., 12.: Up to you.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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Walter
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Re: 43S News

Post by Walter » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:19 pm

Jaymos wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:01 pm
C. Suggestion:
in the CPX menu, could it be considered to swap (angle) and (UNITV) commands, so that (angle and |x|) is a pair on the primary function keys, next to each other, as would (sign and UNITV) be a pair on the shifter keys?
Error in administration: CPX sign and CPX UNITV are actually identical (see the ReM). And |x| is on the keyboard already, so having (angle) and UNITV unshifted and |x| shifted in CPX makes some sense. Sorry for the confusion.
DM42 SN: 00041 --- Follower of Platon.

HP-35, HP-45, ..., HP-50, WP 34S, WP 31S, DM16L

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